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On May 2, 2003, a group of religious film writers gathered in Los Angeles to preview Jim Carrey’s movie, Bruce Almighty, and interview, among others, the director, Tom Shadyac, a practicing Catholic.
The Serious Questions
The event was a Press Junket, and on this occasion nine writers gathered around a table with Shadyac and quickly introduced themselves:
• Ted Parks — Religious News Service, Catholic Times
• Barbara Nicolosi — National Catholic Register, The Liguorian
• Phil Boatwright — Baptist Press
• Lauren Kitchens — The Fish L.A.
• Enna Waterhouse — Christianity Today
• Bobby Kim — Relevant Magazine
• Megan Basham — Eden Communications, Christian Spotlight
• Bob Smithouser — Focus on the Family
• Mark Pattison — Catholic News Service
Sahdyac: Okay, now switch around and there will be a quiz later on.
Writers: (laughter)
Shadyac: Alright, now. Let's all get very serious and ask religious questions.
Writers: (more laughter)
[But then the serious questions did start.]
Question: Who made the decision to have Bruce and Grace cohabitating without marriage? Is that something you had to live with?
Shadyac: Who made the decision? Or, do you want to say, “Who made the bad decision?” (Laughs)
Question: Did you pretty much have to live with that? Why the decision?
Shadyac: Why the decision? Well, Bruce really wasn't grown up. You know, we don't start with perfect people in movies. We start with imperfect people, and then they have to go on a journey. Let's read the Bible and see how many people cohabitated and did imperfect things. There is shadow in the movie, and the shadow helps the light. So we are not espousing any lifestyle. We are not telling people, “Now this is how to live!” We were telling a story. And Bruce wasn't grown up enough. He didn't appreciate anything in his life. I think when you get married you have to appreciate your life and the partner that you are with. And Bruce wasn't mature enough. It was a big step for him. And that's why the movie ended up where it ended up. It was a choice, you know, a choice. (Pause, then with gusto and a smile) Do you forgive me?
(Audience laughs)
Question: Now that makes sense. I laughed so hard. I had not laughed that hard since I was a kid at camp. And I cried. I want everyone to see this movie. I came away so blown away by the emotion. And that frustrates me because we have to tell our readers “Should they take their kids to see this film?” And, that frustrates me because I want everybody to see this movie. I was wondering why the bedroom [scene] had to happen?
Shadyac: Yes, well again, it happens because we are storytellers. And as storytellers we are dealing with human actors, people, writers, characters. And humans, as you know, tend to make mistakes. I do not know if anyone in this group realizes it, but people curse. (With feeling) They curse! And obviously it is up to parents when parents introduce that reality to their children. And they are going to get that reality at some point or another. So, parents can make choices. Our character, for example, says a curse word. And that was our choice, and it was the lowest part of this character's evolution, you know. He would not be proud of it at the end of the movie. He would not be espousing it. He makes mistakes.
You know, I have been going to church since I was a babe. And I go to church today. And I think one of the challenges of our church, and churchgoers in general, is to accept humanity as it is. We have people in churches acting out, because they don't embrace the whole human being. They deny that we are sexual beings. Or, that we can be angry. I, as a filmmaker, am not going to deny that. I am going to embrace that. I think it's important to embrace the whole of humanity, and to say we are imperfect. By the standards of most Christians today you could not read your Bible. I mean, the Bible is chock full of some pretty racy stuff, folks. There's a lot, a lot, a lot of sexual impropriety. There is violence — all kinds of things. It's not about a moment. It's about the entire journey. If the Bible had not ended where it ended, it could be a pretty downer of a book. But, it ends with redemption. So, if you take one sentence out of the Bible, and that sentence deals with violence or sex, and you just focus on that sentence, you would not want to go near the Bible. But, if you look at the Bible as a whole, it's redemptive and beautiful and it's God's love story to mankind.
And this [film] is our love story, I hope, in dealing with our relationship with God. And, it must deal with imperfections. There is a line that I cut from the movie where God is showing Bruce some footage of Lance Armstrong. As you know, Lance had cancer and overcame it. To paint a picture like that you've got to use some dark colors. The most powerful stories we tell in our lives are [about] people who come from dark colors. People who have been challenged by addictions, or abuse. And to overcome that is really the light overcoming the darkness. Without the darkness you have lost [both] humanity and the power of the light. (Pause and then loudly — sounds like Jim Carrey) AMEN!
Writers: Hallelujah! (laughter)
Looking Up and Looking In
Question: I am interested in the spirituality that underlines the whole journey aspect of the movie. God goes to a lot trouble to teach this one man to pray. How did God teach you to pray?
Shadyac: He went through a lot of trouble, I can tell you that. The movie is very personal to me in a lot of ways because I have been the guy on the ground. Struggling. “God, why don't you answer this prayer?” I could not get work ten years ago. I couldn't get arrested. And, I got an opportunity to direct She's the Sheriff. And I thought for sure it was going to come through, but it didn't. And I was screaming at the Man, the Creative Force, “Why, why, why?” Well, now in hindsight you can see why. I was being prepared. I was growing up. I was learning to be stronger. To die to my own way, and to embrace the Divine way. I think God goes through a lot of trouble with most of us, because we are stubborn, we are petulant, we need a lot of help. There is a line in the movie that just kind of goes by, but that really is a significant line to me — when Bruce tells God, “I just gave everyone what they wanted.” And God says, “Since when does anyone have a clue about what they want?” We think we want the house, the car, this certain relationship. We have no idea what we really want. What we really need is freedom, to be loved and to love. It is often quite a journey getting us to that point.
Question: There is a line in the movie where God says, “Everyone's problem is that they keep on looking up.”
Shadyac: Yes, yes. And here comes the big controversy. Let's stir the pot. (Laughter from audience) The key word in that sentence is “you keep looking up.” I think looking up is essential. Humility and looking to God, looking to this Divine Creative Force, is essential. Because I believe it's a reality. It's in your blood, it's in your DNA and it's in mine. And our relationship with that Divine Force is essential. However, to keep looking up means that we depend on God to do everything for us. There is a story about a nun who went to God and said, “Why, God, don't you do something about the people that are hungry and sick?” And God said, “I did, I made you.”
Right here (points to self) is where I need to look for God. There is a reason why Jesus went up. [Otherwise] he could be right here in this room. Jesus could be right here. He could be a producer. But he decided, I think in my own thinking anyway, to go up, and to leave us as his hands, as his feet, as his heart, as his expressions. So the key words there are “keep looking up.” I hope people will look up, but don't just keep looking up.
Question: Is there significance to this incarnation of the guy who gets divine powers? Is there any connection there?
Shadyac: The incarnation? Like is there a subtle message about the incarnation? Meaning Jesus is the incarnation? I think there are subtle messages all over this movie. And you can take them for what you will, where you are standing in your particular spiritual walk. I accidentally run into them, like with the Father, Son and Holly Ghost analogies. Morgan is three guys in the movie. Morgan is the electrician, the janitor, and the boss. Father, Son, Holy Ghost — kind of. Many were intentional and many were just coincidental — which is one of my favorite sayings, “Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous.”
We purposely did not want to be dogmatic in this movie, folks. And I think Jesus purposely did not want to be dogmatic. Jesus was a storyteller. He didn't get into a lot of dogma when he told the story of Prodigal Son, or the Three Virgins — or was it Ten Virgins? I forget. Oh well, there were a lot of virgins in those days, anyways. But, he purposely did not get dogmatic. He was a very inclusive soul. And we are telling a parable here. And dogma — we did not want to divide with dogma. We wanted to be inclusive in our storytelling.
To Touch the Lost
Question: You are a Christian; you are around people in Hollywood that have been burnt by Christians. They feel like Christians don't get it — that Christians are harsh and so [they feel] they can't go to church. What would you tell them to make a difference in Hollywood, to help bridge the gap between the entertainment industry and the Church?
Shadyac: Well, first I think that the entertainment industry can be vilified, and we are just like everyone else. We are doing the best that we can. And we are imperfect. You know, I have been on a walk myself. And I have been part of the judgmental sect of society. So, I really understand it. You want the best for someone. You want them to see the light. But that line that you set is so important. And I think it is so important for Christians to embrace — see things through God's eyes. How does God see that Hollywood person who is imperfect — who may not be walking the cleanest walk right now? God sees them as beautiful, and full of potential, and full of light. And who knows, what Christian knows, what God is doing in that person's life? It could be on that person's deathbed that they get it. And that's enough, because God doesn't deal in chronos — you know, in chronological time. He deals in … the quality of time. A moment can be eternity. I think we Christians, we people who “have seen the light,” have to get off our judgmental high thrones. I understand why — because you want everyone to have the light. But God is working in each life, individually, independently, dependently. Allow people to go on their own imperfect journey. He will make it perfect. He is God. Okay? I think too often we try to be God. I hope that the Christian community, the very community that can embrace the movie, ought to give it a chance — in whole. Because — and again I use the analogy of the Bible — you could not even read the Bible unless you take it as a whole story. We get so dogmatic and close-minded. You lose the forest for the trees.
I speak at spirituality conferences, occasionally, and they only talk of religious movies as being ones that only deal with religion. And it's just not true. This one just happens to have God in it so it's seen as a religious movie. But, so many movies are “spiritual or religious” movies, and people won't see them that way because there isn't a priest, nun or a minister. And they'll lose the forest for the trees. Take like, and I don't want to push Scent of a Woman, but Scent of a Woman is the book of Ecclesiastes. Now, how many Christians will stay away from that movie because there is cursing and he sleeps with a hooker? That is the book of Ecclesiastes. The man who says, “All is vanity, all is lost, I have no hope.” It is the love of a boy, the love of a child, God incarnate through a boy, comes in and says, “I love you,” and it changes his life.
We, as Christians, if we stay on our judgmental box, miss that. We miss that. We miss it. (pause, then loudly) AMEN!
Question: One of the things I heard, before seeing the film, was “What about this raging against God?” “Isn't that blasphemous?”
Shadyac: Yes! I answer it with Elijah, Jonah and Job. And I answer it with my understanding of what God seeks in all of us, which is relationship. And relationship demands honesty. I don't think we are to live in our anger and our rage. But, to express it. Again, [this is] to express a step along the journey. Bruce raged at God. A few weeks later he got to see how silly that was. How self-indulgent that was. How self-involved that was. How un-evolved that was. But, had he not raged, had he not been honest, who knows if that step would have been taken. God loved him all along. The soil had to soften. The soul had to become more porous so the seed could take root.
Grace and Choices
Question: …God loves everyone. But God cannot violate free will and make them love Him. My favorite scene is when Bruce is standing there secretly chanting to Grace, “Love me, love me” in an attempt to get her to love him against her free will. Morgan Freeman says to Bruce, “Welcome to my world.” I think that moment was a real window into God for the audience.
Shadyac: Yes, God cannot make you love him, that's the thing.
Question: That's high theology.
Shadyac: Yes it is! He says “How can you make someone love you if you can not effect free will?” [God] says, “Welcome to my world, son.”
Question: …We are not puppets…
Shadyac: Yes, and because we have free will, you must introduce the shadow. That's why I say this movie is appropriate. Even in its imperfections, its moments where it dips into what some would consider the dark. It's important. It's an important part of the storytelling. Because He gave us free will. And what we do with that free will is really up to us. And we make mistakes, but the light is always there pulling us towards it.
Question: I think that the people I write for would give this film a chance theologically. The challenge particularly for teenagers…about the sexual content…is the bedroom scene and the whole thing. And I see that as one of the more egregious things for people to get over, in order to give it a chance. And I understand what you said about starting out unmarried and ending up married, that makes a lot of sense. It would have been nice — I don't want to speak for everybody — if they could have been dating. If it could have been more healthy. Because there is nothing in the film that casts that relationship as a mistake. As the imperfect. There is nothing in the context of the film that makes it clear, in this film, that, that is not a good thing to emulate. Because, you really like these characters. They are nice people. So, could you talk about that a little bit? What would you say to the parent who really would like to sit down with a 15-16 year old who watched this movie, but is very uncomfortable with that particular type of content?
Shadyac: I would say, “Let's talk about Bruce Nolan. Let's talk about the choices he made at the beginning of the movie, and then lets talk — over a meal with the rest of the family — about the choices he made at the end of the movie.
Bruce Nolan has a great relationship. You are right; these are two good people — with one huge exception. Bruce Nolan doesn't see it. He misses every sign that God gives him. The woman's name is Grace, for goodness sake. She is literally grace in his life. And he doesn't see it. He's not making choices based on the ultimate evolution of his character. Ultimately, loving choices.
I was just talking to another reporter. She said, “I got two messages from the movie. (1) 'Be the miracle' and (2) Jim said, 'Appreciate your life.'” But to be the miracle you have to appreciate your life. I cannot be the miracle in your life if I am not healthy. I [need to realize that I] have been given means and opportunity, [that] I can share that now with you. Bruce doesn't. He doesn't. Yes, he's been given a great woman, but he doesn't see it. He's looking at all the external things in his life, to fix his life. He wants a better job, a bigger apartment. He has a mediocre job. He has a mediocre life. I would talk about that with my family. Let's look at where Bruce started this movie.
I was just reading St. Augustine this morning. You guys should not pick up that book. If people will not go to see Bruce Almighty, then [they] shouldn't pick up Confessions by Saint Augustine. Because he lived a very worldly life — with all the trappings of the world. And they were sexual. And look at St. Paul. Don't read St. Paul, please. He killed Christians. He didn't just sleep with someone before marriage. He killed Christians. Don't look at St. Paul. We could go down the list of everyone [in the Bible] that these families admire, and yet these people will hold Hollywood to a different standard. They will take St. Augustine's Confessions and say, “Read it. It's a beautiful book.” But Bruce Almighty isn't beautiful, because he's out of wedlock with a woman. My goodness! St. Augustine was a crazy man. He would take MTV and show them how to party. But he became St. Augustine. You can not take the end of the story without the beginning of the story. What is wrong with us? My goodness! We have gotten so narrowly focused. We've missed the whole picture — that God gave us — dark and light. The light cannot be there without the dark.
Question: What they want you to say at the end [is]: “And now will you marry me? Because what we have been doing is living in sin.”
Shadyac: We already have, when he says, “This is my Mrs. Exclusive.” And you know, who are we…this is my personal opinion…to get into God's head space? God said to a woman at the well, “Ah, you've been married this many times already; you say you haven't, but you been married this many times already.” In God's eyes maybe Bruce and Grace were married from the first time they were together. You know, it's just a matter of society and Bruce catching up to that idea — that seed — that God had placed in him all that time.
The Message
Question: What exactly is the message of the film?
Shadyac: I think its personal. Each person can go to this movie and take a different message than what I have. It could be “Appreciate what you have.” It could be “Be the miracle.” For me the movie has always been about the true source of power. And we give power away all the time in our lives. We give all the power to God, when he says, “I am right there in you. The power is in you to make a difference. I put it there. I created you.”
Really for me, at its deepest level, its about true power. True power. Not giving it away to a job, or to any relationship, but looking inside and up — then taking that nothing, [and realizing that] nothing can affect your true identity and your true power.
Question: What other films, besides Scent of a Woman would you see as a spiritual film without being overtly Christian?
Shadyac: Forrest Gump. Or Being There, which is basically becoming like little children, or you can't enter the kingdom of God. There are so many movies out there that if we all looked at the beginning of the movie, and then looked at the end of the movie, we could really have some amazing discussions with our kids. Because they're going to find out about all those imperfections sooner or later.
Question: Was it difficult, as a Christian, to get your view across in this film to the stars or the writer? Was it difficult compromising there, or were you…
Shadyac: Really not…no difference at all. Except how to express — what words to put in the mouth of God or Bruce's mouth. Jim being the star is a brother — I mean is a brother in many ways to me. You know, comedy being our passion. But also this search, the quest, spirituality, faith, prayer, are all very much a part of Jim's life.
Question: Really?
Shadyac: Oh very much so. Again, I don't speak for him; I'll let him speak. But, that's what I've observed. Steve Oedekerk, our writer, the gentleman who came in and rewrote the script — completely — a man of prayer, faith, walking the God-walk, in his own way. So, I do not think it was an accident that we were brought together to do this. So, there was a great kinship. It was not a struggle at all. It was just a challenge, you know, putting words in God's mouth. I called my friends, who were ministers, or priests, or theologians, and said, “Hey we're putting words in God's mouth. Help! What would you say if you were God and you could speak? Father Ken, at where I go to church — St. Agatha's here in town — helped us write some of the best lines.
Writer: St. Agatha's…the 10:00 A.M. Mass?
Shadyac: Yeah. It's a great place isn't it? 10 A.M. It's an awesome place.
Writer: Yes. That's where I bring all my converts. They think they know what a Catholic Church is until you bring them there.
Shadyac: (laughs) Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. They think they know what a Catholic Church is until you bring them to this place.
Question: I came from a very secular background where any mention of faith or God is a real turnoff. When they see this movie they're going to say, “That was a very Christian movie.”…A lot of my friends saw Signs and said, “Forget that movie…it was bull,” and [they were] going off about it.
Shadyac: Thinking that Signs was a Jesus bull movie?
Writer: Yeah. Yeah. Any mention of God,…
Shadyac: …or faith…
Question: …Yeah. Any mention of God or faith, and [they say], “I'm done. Forget it.” How do you think this Bruce Almighty is going to play off that kind of an audience?
Shadyac: I'd say, go anyway, because there is so much fun in it. It's really Jim at the height of his comedic game. He's playful again, he's inventive and creative. And right now, if you're closed to that cup, so be it. Maybe someday they'll be open. I think anytime you see someone who is passionately closed to God, it is a sign — apathy is different — but passionately closed, I think it means that life will eventually open a door. But I would say go, because I think there is plenty there for a secular audience to go and enjoy themselves and have a good time.
Writer: This Steve Correll guy is…
Shadyac: (laughs) Yeah, he's great.
Writer: How did you ever get through that?
Shadyac: It was a hard scene. We laughed and laughed. It reminded me of the dinner table scene in The Nutty Professor, where just laugh after laugh, just keeps coming and coming.
Shadyac: [Re: Sally Kirland's role in the movie.] She was great. You'll probably see more of her role on the DVD, I cut it down in the movie. People were confessing to Bruce…as soon as she saw Bruce at the dinner she confessed. But he didn't know why. It just raised some questions, so we cut it out of the movie.
Question: What would you say about this huge theme of prayer in the movie? What's makes prayer? What makes a good prayer? What makes a bad prayer? How would you finish the sentence: “”People should pray because…”
Shadyac: Umm. (long pause) Well, I don't want to tell people what to do, but I pray, because it's essential for me. I have come to view prayer as a conversation. It goes back to that relationship that we talked about. I've also come to believe that prayer can be so many things. I read, write and pray in the mornings. My writing, my journaling, became a form of prayer, just being honest with God. “Boy, I'm really frustrated with this.” “What's happening here?” And, “I feel sad about that.” I am a fan of Thomas Merton, and have read many of his journals, and I realize that was one of his forms of prayer. For me, prayer can mean a lot of things. I think we should live our lives as 24/7 prayers, offering our lives completely. For me that's the goal, to be a conduit.
Tom's Handler: I'm going to have to close there.
Shadyac: Oh, but these are my friends!
Question: One last question. You obviously have a very strong belief and yet you have to deal with everybody. Do you feel you come up to a wall? Do you find people in Hollywood that stay away from you because you're a Christian?
Shadyac: No, I haven't found that at all, and I will tell you why. I am making 'em money.
Writers: (laughter)
Shadyac: We are telling tales that people are being entertained by. It's called show business. As long as the business side of things adds up to a plus, they're going to give you a forum.
[Everyone says their good-byes to Tom]
Writer: I think that's the first time the term “doctrine of incarnation” has ever been uttered in a press conference — ever.
The audio of this interview is available on-line here.
