• SeanReynoldsNZ

    Let’s start off on the greed one: How about the amount of taxation charged by governments on income earners? The irony of this is that one could reasonably argue that people on the highest incomes that are taxed the most are where they are primarily because they chose to apply their skills and talents to getting there, not necessarily because of government policies. And they didn’t necessarily get there by exploiting other people or sheer greed either.

    Money never makes the man: The man makes the money. All money will do is to help reveal who you are. A generous person with millions of dollars will use their cash to be even more generous, unless they give in to original sin because they at some point walk away from God. A jerk with millions of dollars will find it easier to be a jerk, and lots of hangers on will try to gather around them to get the cash.

    My other thought is that Jesus told us that you cannot serve both God and money. Joseph of Arimethea put his fortune to God’s service when he chose to honour the Son of God with his own burial plot. The woman with the alabaster jar annointed the feet of Christ while Judas concerned himself with “social justice”. The disciples ran for it when Our Lord went through His Passion. The people who came out for him were: St John the Evangelist; Our Lady and other women who had followed Our Lord … and some rich Pharisees who wanted to honour Our Lord by providing Him with a tomb.

  • Kathryn

    I am not entirely sure how a new call for “global governance” isn’t an attack on the free market. And where are we to find the pure hearted people that will “govern” the financial markets to make sure that “greed” doesn’t destroy things? Certainly not in the US. Christ Dodd and Freddie Mac, anyone? Certainly, the UN is a lost cause.

    And when the Pope reflects on “capitalism,” I find myself asking, “Okay, how is he defining it? How does he understand it?”

    It is my understanding that the system the US (and the Western world in general) in a long way from capitalism, and is in fact more correctly termed a “mixed market”–a market with some freedom, but also a lot of control by the government.

    Ultimately, I don’t think what the encyclical says is important (I don’t mean it quite that way, but not sure how else to put it.) What is important is how it will be interpretted by the leaders of our Church, and what policies they will now start preaching on. “[C]all[s] for a new level of global “governance” to control financial excesses sounds like we are headed into troubled waters to me.

  • Kathryn

    Funny, after I wrote the above, I came upon this article http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matthew-balan/2009/07/07/ap-reuters-go-full-tilt-spinning-latest-writing-pope

    I suspect most rank and file Catholics will get their interpretation of what the Pope wrote from the AP, Reuters, etc as opposed to a more balanced Catholic interpretation.

  • Tarheel

    Interesting comments. I must admit that I have not read the encyclical in its entirety (yet, hard to do at work) but from what I have read, I get the impression that our Pope wants everyone to use ethically and morally sound judgment when investing not only our on money but when we are in positions to invest others as well. And not just invest money to make more money. To invest it in ways that will help others as well as ourselves.

    There is in this document good solid guidelines for all. But unfortunately too many people, catholics and non-catholics, will rely on commentary form various news sources rather than read it themselves. And unfortunately in this way this encyclical may not be fully understood.

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  • javanderhulst

    The encyclical is more revolutionary than most will realize. It issues a profound and radical challenge to our current economic system. This is not to say that the encyclical is anti-capitalist at all, but it points to the limitations of that system and issues a challenge.

    The point of the encylical, as explained in the introduction, is that Jesus is the Truth and He is Love, and that this truth and love must deeply affect and influence ALL aspects of human life, including the economy. Capitalism, from the very beginning as explained by Adam Smith, is a system built upon the principle of pursuing self-interest (profit). Self-interest is what drives the system. This makes for a very effective and productive system that has built unprecedented amounts of wealth. But it is an inherently selfish system. Adam Smith believed in the “Invisible Hand”, that somehow, if everyone pursued their own interests, everyone would get what they need to live as dignified human beings. This is obviously a fallacy, which has been proven by the Great Depression and the current depression. Self-interest cannot produce prosperity for all, it is merely an instrument for producing wealth and stuff.

    But most continue to believe in the Invisible Hand. That all we need is more wealth and more productivity. The Pope is challenging this first principle of capitalism and calling for a radical change in which people put the interests of OTHERS before their own, even in the economic realm. The encyclical insists that the love in truth taught by the Gospel is fully applicable in the realm of the economy. The Pope is insisting that economic activity is not somehow excluded from the demands of the Gospel. We must exercise truth and love in EVERY aspect of our lives, including our economic activity. As the Pope points out in his introduction, this calls for FAR MORE than mere justice. It is not enough that economic activity be fair and just. Rather, this is a profound and radical challenge to capitalism. Our economic system would look very different if those participating put the interests of others before their own.

    Many would say this is impossible, but that’s what Christ’s listeners have always said about His challenging teachings. This is what we are called to as Christians. Love isn’t optional. And love goes far beyond justice. As Pope Benedict said on Christmas last year: “If people look only to their own interests, our world will certainly fall apart.” In this short statement, the Pope was giving us the essence of his new encyclical.

  • elkabrikir

    Sean,

    excellent remarks. I hope your wife is doing well….it’s winter Down Under, so that’s a blessing.

    I think this encyclical is a lot of “Pie in the sky” mumbo-jumbo (no disrespect meant) that will be used as propaganda by the left, including the communist leaning Obama. (although for some reason Russia hates him….maybe he’s more catholic than the pope, so to speak.)

    I DO think that Christian individuals, working throught organizations such as Catholic Charities still hear the “knock at the door” of poor people. Clear evidence of a vast transfer of wealth exists. Americans, in particular, are noted for their private charity. They give what the government hasn’t stolen.

    The same political hacks who exploit the poor, both from within the donor nation and within the recipient nation, will still control the Brave New Model to end all Models, UN.

    I think this encyclical should have been issued with great trepidation. It is fodder for enemies of humanity. For instance, they can’t embrace subsidiarism because their power would be diffused. Use the realm of education as an example. In the US, vouchers have been roundly defeated by the politicians because they’re in the pocket of the teachers’ unions. It is a sin against justice for children to attend schools which don’t best meet their needs as determined by the parents, who have the ultimate authority and sacred duty to educate their own children. Yet the proponents of globalization will work to criminalize homeschooling. (research what is happening in England and Germany).

    I think the Church should be leary of providing suggestings for structural changes in governance, eg, how to get things done–read World Government. Paragraph 76 is excellent and, is, I believe, where the answer lies. Evangelize for Christ by implementing subsidiarism in your own sphere of influence. Start with your own soul and that of your family members. From there branch out to your neighbor and your co-workers. Set the world on fire, one soul at a time, by using the kindling of small (not pusillanious), zealous, souls.

    The risk of this document becoming
    the magna carta of the Union of Globalized Secular Humanists far outweighs the benefits. (Think Seamleass Garment heresy).

    Deus Caritas Est said it all.

  • JimAroo

    How many of us benefit today directly and indirectly from the inventions and discoveries of Thomas Alva Edison So many of the good things in our modern world depend on the harnessing of electricity that he pioneered – communications, medical, educational, humanitarian, even this internet I am using to read the Pope! I know these inventions and tools can be used for good or evil….. but that isn’t the fault of the tool or its inventor.

    Now back to Mr. Edison. He was motivated almost entirely by huge greed…. he would not pursue even the greatest invention if he didn’t see a buck in it. It is said he passed on buying the patent for the telephone because he didn’t see any profit in it. He was also an unpleasant, rude, obnoxious person.

    He did things for all the wrong most terrible reasons.

    You can make similar parallels in pharmacology (which is one of the wonders of the modern world, in food production which does more to fight hunger than all the good wishes, computers and the internet (eg the evil Mr Gates) that allows me
    to read the Pope’s writings, the Fathers of the church, to research Thomas Aquinas, to communicate the Gospel far and wide.

    These fields are all driven by greed…. be careful what you wish for my friends.
    A world without the motivation of self interest will quickly slip back into barbarism and hopelessness. Here is a thought….the greedier you are the more people you will benefit materially. Thank you Mr Edison.

    Now to the spiritual aspect….. would it be better if all I said was not true?
    YES!!!!! I pray that it be so. I pray that all be converted to “Spe Salvi” – the Hope of Salvation. In that perfect world we all crave, it will be so.
    But, as far as I can tell, no one has revoked the effects of Original Sin in our souls. As long as that is true, people will lie and cheat and misuse nature, themselves and each other. The question is not what the perfect world would be like but how do we make this imperfect world and each of us as good and as holy as we can. Given that severe limitation, let the free market exist and let us with all our hearts always fight to curb its excesses and protect its victims- the helpless, the wounded and the abandoned. The decision is deciding which is the least evil way to organize society – capitalism is the worst way to do it…except for all the rest

  • Mary Kochan

    So, Jim, what did Thomas Alva do to his own soul?

    Look, the pope isn’t outlawing greed. That is impossible. There will still be greedy people and some of them, like Edison, will do things that greatly benefit humankind. But for those who have ears to hear, our holy father is saying that we should have better and higher motives.

    Holy fright, people, come on! Our salvation is at stake. What profit if we gain the world — or benefit the world — and end up in hell?

    The pope is not condemning capitalism — it takes capital to build anything. He is condemning greed.

  • JimAroo

    Dear Mary
    1)It is above my pay grade to know the state of Mr. Edison’s soul at his judgment.
    2)Greed (excessive self interest) is what makes capitalism work. If you take the greed out of capitalism, you no longer have capitalism. Our job is often to stifle this vice in ourselves and turn it to God’s work where we find it.
    3) A world wide economic system will be the end of freedom -political freedom, economic freedom, and religious freedom. Yes greed will be totally regulated and so will everything else – be careful what you wish for.

  • goral

    I often use the example of my beehives to illustrate how self-interest benefits all of us. The bees could give a hive about pollinating and producing for the beekeeper. They do all of that because they just want to gather nectar and pollen for themselves and for the queen and for a drone here and there otherwise known as a son of a bee.
    At the end of the season I got honey. The system worked.
    Then along comes a greedy bear, pillages and decimates the hives in search of the sweet stuff. The bees are crushed physically, the beekeeper is crushed mentally and the bear has just destroyed a productive society and the future source of sweetness. I speak from personal experience.

    So it is with the capitalist system, driven by self-interest it’s very productive and rewarding; driven by greed it’s destructive and cannibalistic.

    I would criticize BXVI for playing right into the hands of the left-wingers but I’ll refrain from doing that. I will extend to him my credulity for his office.
    If he and his predecessor were Roman born and raised, I would have some doubts.
    These guys have experienced life from all sides and have concluded that neither capitalism nor socialism serves mankind well.

    In a wealthy free society abortion is the law of the land just as it was and is under communism.
    Education is for profit.
    Healthcare is for profit, hospitals are profit driven.
    Childcare is for profit including the disabled.
    Elderly care is for profit with reverse mortgages being promoted to rip-off the needy and in some cases the greedy.

    Not bad some of you say. There’s the profit motive at work, the strong make it, the thieves steal from the innocent and guilty alike and we’ve got a good thing going.

    The pope says no you don’t. He tells us that our system of greed is destroying souls and driving people destitute. Twenty percent interest is usury and an outrage. Why do we look at it as a norm?

    Capitalism, the creation of capitol through ethical hard work and regard for neighbor is a beautiful system. He’s telling us what we already know – We don’t have it.

    I may address the world government part after I digest the text. I don’t dare attribute to him the lack of understanding of that kind of a godless system.

  • jamespereira

    I personally know many multi-millionaires and I can say from the way they behave and their charitable actions, they don’t operate on greed.

    Unfortunately, this is the image most of middle-class and poor people have of the super-rich – that they are all Gordon Geckos.

    In fact, some of these millionaires are my wealth-building mentors and I can definitely say that it’s not greed that makes me want millions of dollars. Since, Jesus has instructed us not to boast of our good deeds, I won’t reveal why I want millions, but suffice to say, it’s not just for me or for my family.

    I strong adherent of the principle that everything I have came from God and so I’m merely the steward of my financial fortune and it’s my responsibility (derived from Jesus’ 2nd Commandment) that it should be shared and given away.

    Every one of those millionaires I mentioned earlier always advise us (their students) to give away our wealth and they always stress that more will come back to them. Maybe this sounds like the gospel of prosperity that some people preach but from my own experience I can verify this to be true. Anyways, it’s also in the Bible that God will reward ten-fold those who are charitable.

    You see money is never the root of evil, it’s low morals that make one feel they don’t have enough. That’s where greed comes from. It’s only when you are grateful for what you have (no matter how little that is) that you can feel you have enough to give away. For this we need to have the mentality of abundance (the same principle God operates by). The abundance principle dictates that there is more than enough to go around. Resources are never finite.

    It’s the scarcity mentality that drives greed and hoarding of wealth.

  • http://cradlerocker624.blogspot.com/ Madeline

    Capitalism isn’t the problem, it’s greed, just as the Holy Father said. Self interest isn’t the problem. We are converted through self interest (ie the fear of hell) to begin with, no one ever loves God as perfectly as he deserves except the Blessed Mother.

    So Self interest has to play a part in a system…
    what the problem IS is that people no longer have a well formed conscience, or even worse, many consciences are seared beyond hope so they no longer fear God, or hell, or hurting their fellow man.

    The Common Good must be ingrained as part of our self interest.
    A good business man looks out for the common good in his pursuit of profit. he doesn’t cheat his customers, or the government or his fellow business men, he gives to charity and pays his employees a fair wage.
    Employees should respect their employer, not steal from the company, give to charity, and give a fair days work for their wage.

    Every business man should carry the ten commandments in their heart….but our society is throwing these commandments out. If we do not follow Gods law, we will be forced to live by the law of the jungle, which is exactly what is happening: We are sliding into marxism, which is NEVER good for the family or society, not even slightly. We will be ruled by Godless men who do not fear anything except loosing their power.

    God bless our Good pope for this beautiful encyclical.
    I just wish those in power would read it and begin to fear God a little.
    madeline

  • javanderhulst

    Self-interest is precisely the problem. Eliminating greed alone is not enough, as the Pope says in the encyclical. He says justice is not enough, because we are called to love and love goes beyond justice. To love is to put the interests of others before your own. In our egocentric era, this is a radical demand. But it is exactly what Christ calls us to.

    Why must our economy be driven by self-interest? Why must capitalism cease to exist without self-interest? What if our interest and concern for others was greater than for ourselves? Wouldn’t that interest be enough to drive the “system”? Why do we assume that men must always be driven by self-interest and self-gratification? Doesn’t the Gospel teach the exact opposite?

    Education, healthcare, child and elderly care are currently profit driven. But they have not always been. In fact, it is only in the past two centuries that they have been profit driven. Universities, schools, hospitals, and orphanages have been around for millenia, long before capitalism. In there origins, they existed for the love of learning, for the love of the sick, and for the love of the poor and orphaned. Love is what drove them, not profit. Why must we assume that love is somehow weaker than the desire for profit? Edison was driven by self-interest, but many inventors were not, they were driven by nothing else than love of others. Louis Pasteur is a good example. He invented vaccines and pasteurization, leading to the elimination of tuberculosis. And he didn’t do it for any profit for himself.

    Pope Benedict could not have put it better: “If people look only to their own interests, our world will certainly fall apart.” Self-interest is the problem. Christ asks us to put the interests of other before our own. It’s one thing not to defraud our neighbor, it is another thing entirely to love him and put his interest before our own.

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