The Incoherence of Atheism, Part 2



Last week, we discussed one facet of the incoherence of atheism, namely its dependence on materialism and naturalism to try to explain away the supernatural.  It seems like a pretty promising road at first.  The atheist loves to recite little tropes like "Once, people thought thunder was the voice of God.  Now we know that it's caused by discharges of electricity."  And so, we are invited to assume that absolutely everything is equally explicable in terms of material causes.

The problem is that, as we saw last week, a purely material explanation of the human mind itself means that the human mind is not free, but is merely a result of mindless chemical processes.  And we know that thoughts which are merely caused by nature, yet not rooted in a rational soul that is created in the image and likeness of the Reason or Logos of God are valid, at best, only by luck and usually not at all.  The proof of this is seen in the way materialists themselves talk:  "People who claim to see ghosts are suffering from a chemical imbalance that causes them to see things that aren't there."  Likewise, most humans argue along the same lines: "He doesn't believe in capitalism because of a sound reason.  He believes in it because he wants to keep his money"; "You trust the police because you are a fascist"; "You believe in God because you need a Father figure to keep you safe."  Thoughts which are merely caused by irrational forces but not rooted in Reason are, in short, just electrochemical activity that happens to be going on in a three pound piece of meat behind your eyes.  Yet that is what all thought must be according to the atheist, because nature is all there is.

Now the curious thing is that atheists themselves do not really believe this, if we watch what they do and not merely what they say.  For atheist authors like Daniel Dennett and Richard Dawkins do pretty much nothing all day but give lectures and write books like Breaking the Spell and The God Delusion in which they try to persuade people to freely change their minds about belief in God.  But if what we call free will and reason are simply illusions (as atheist materialists like William Provine claim) then this a monumental exercise in wasted time.

 Beyond this, however, is the curious fact that atheists do not simply live as though free will and reason are real despite their own rhetoric: they even compound this by getting angry at theists.  They do not simply speak like mathematicians coolly concerned about an erroneous miscalculation.  They typically write as moralists outraged at evil and even (perish the thought) sin!  And so we get the peculiar spectacle of the atheist attempting to say, "La de dah!  Religion is completely transparent and soluble to the Rational Mind" as he tries to come up with a completely naturalistic explanation of its origins.  Yet, at the same time, the atheist is given to outbursts of anger and rage at "faithheads" and "Godidiots" whose religious beliefs are the source of everything from the Holocaust to long lines at the post office during Christmas.  Read virtually any atheist for even a few pages and the anger strikes you in the face like the heat of a furnace.

But here's the thing: a man like Dawkins (whose expertise is actually in creatures like wasps), does not seem to have any outrage at all for these critters when they lay their eggs in a paralyzed insect and leave their young to eat their way out of the helpless victim.  Yet by his own account, the religious impulse is just as much an artifact of blind and purposeless forces as the wasp's breeding habits.  So why all the outrage?

Moral: One can be a materialist or a moralist, but not both.  Most atheists are emphatically both, claiming that religion is a purely natural secretion of the brain, just as insulin is a purely natural secretion of the pancreas.  But if religion is a naturalistically evolved epiphenomenon of the brain that can no more be eliminated than the pancreas' naturalistically evolved tendency to secrete insulin, why get angry at it?  Do we berate the modern pancreas for having so much in common with the pancreas of our barbaric ancestors?  Why then, are atheists so irritated at ordinary human beings for having brains which, by their own account, cannot resist the impulse to see Somebody at work behind the natural order, just as our (allegedly) foolish ancestors did?  Why, it's almost as though atheists are conscious of a human relationship to some supernatural standard of goodness which other creatures do not share since they lack a free rational soul.

And that leads to a final question, which we will look at next week.

(This piece was first published in the National Catholic Register.)

Comments

  • Guest

    To Stengel : A few afterthoughts. In opening paragraphs you mention that we differ from atheists in having different "reasons" for our otherwise

    [often] moral overlap. However this is a difference that makes no difference, especially to the soup kitchen. et.al. Importantly, it should make no difference to us in the public square. In fact, our adducing religious resaons in the public square is not only inappropriate but singularly inimical to the very cause we may be espousing. I have previously alluded to this. For a pretty good article on this see Social Hope by Richard Rorty, " Religion As a Conversation Stopper."  There is another more complex and quite problematic claim you make. You state that only Christians can be exceptionally good; that  enjoying only a limited morality that covers many "don'ts", they are nonetheless impoverished in the more advanced and positive moral agenda. You claim this is due to their being left to personal opinion.

    But I think this is quite incorrect. We should have to trace current models of how moral learning is aquired which I can not do just now. I refer particulary to the work of Churchland. The upshot of current neurobiological models is that moral knowledge is community/socially acquired. It is learned, honed in the caldron of reinforcing as well as pruning concrete experience, and moral knowledge adjusts its perceptual vision of relevances to the ever changing and nuanced face of changing social condidtions and subsetd. Now the point is that atheists enjoy the benefit of community in the broad sense needed for the aqusistion and adjustment of moral knowledge. While any one may opt to be a solipsist -Chrsitian or otherwise – having extricated him/herself from the required mileu for moral knowledge acquisistion such a person would thereby not [by definition ]possess moral knowledge, loosely defined as a skill set applied to the social sphere in concert with that sphere's self conception of the good. In fact, moral growth - in the specific sense of one's capacity to concretely schematize a very broad range of moral relevancies "out there" -may be better capacitated by a more fluid and more responsive humanistic neuronal-synaptic set of moral knowledge than the bulkk of most Christians neurional sets who have been deceived into envisaging moral knowledge as a rather static relationship betweem the self and a set of rather calcified fixed rules and precepts to which one must adhere. Churchland et. al have pretty convincingly shown – by nerurobilogical computational brain models – just how problematic and morally obtunding this is, that is to say, quite morally deficient. We Chrsitians must learn how to de-calcify our entire program of moral teaching in the Church, where de-calcify does not mean "waterdown" or "compromise" but rather the actual overhauling of moral education in toto, in keeping with the latest science on moral knowledge acquistion. Atheists have this very significant advantage at present. Besides, pertaining to your claim that atheists are deficient and incapable of the moral hero/heroine I respond, so be it. However, given our current pathetic state of Cathoilic moral education and progress, I just might trade one saint- in- progress for a more ubiquitous, grassroots "pew-population" of truly morally educated Catholics -in progress – in the new sense of Christian moral education I am suggesting. 

     

     

     

       

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     and thus make more fluid and hence

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     interdigitate with

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    relationship.  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++etc,etc.++++33333333to3

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    unity

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    programs.

    disadvantaged in this regard because

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    vision

  • Guest

    moral knowledge I believe falls into two catagories.

    the first is deduced or evidential moral knowledge. 

    This is the type of moral knowledge an atheist might approach  by having faith in the principle of natural law. 

     However, the second far superior moral knowledge is 'infused' moral knowledge.  It is a result of having a direct relationship with a supernatural being known to Christians as 'God' .  God guides a person by a combination of feelings and events which sever to communicate information the both the conscious and unconscious mind , which would otherwise be entirely out of it's grasp.  For the purpose of leading a person to a  conclusion that a given action is what he wants them to take.  The reason this knowledge is far superior is because it origin is not within the human person but within the divine.  A human person cannot gather enough evidence to account for many of the otherwise unintended effects of their actions.   However by listening to God, discering his will and allow oneself to be guided by the holy spirit.  A persons actions are now guided by a being who can and does take EVERY possibility and all information into account before asking the person to take an action.

     

    This explains the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

     

     

  • Guest

    I really struggle with the idea of seperating the coporal acts of Mercy from the spirtital ones.

     

    I agree am torn on the idea of coporation with athiest in doing charity work honestly.

     

    For instance recently a bishop out on the east coast was insistant that alanis morriset should not be performing at a cathlic charity event because of her well known stance on abortion.

     

    Further I think, as pope benidict pointed out in his recent book, if you lose sight of the fact that 'man does not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the moth of God.'  and concentrate solely on provinding bread.

    you have failed to do them any favors and fallen for the temptation the devil laid for christ in the Gosphel.

    Consider as a good example Mother Theresa.  She did not insist that the people she helped were christian , however they all knew she was.  She also offered baptism to many of them as they died.  I think there is a balance between being pushy and being present.  But I also think that more is spoken in the silent presense of a person, if they are holy, then volumes that they might speak with thier mouth.

     

    I think we should co-operate when we can with whomever is willing to help , out of love for others, including the people we are co-operating with , but we should never lose sight of the fact that the reason we are helping is to promote the kingdom of God and a relationship with christ.

    Others may have very different goals. 

    This is why the citics of mother theresa just couldn't understand that she had very little intrest in helping people be less poor.  That wasn't her goal.

     

     

     

  • Guest

    To Fishman: I see u want to continue this subject. Being a teacher, I respect your persistence. I may be mistaken. However judging from your previous two posts it appears that you have done some little amount of reading. Good. Let me offer to you an article "If It Feels Good To be Moral It May Be Natural." Go to website "Washingtonpost". Search "morality and brain" or just enter the acticle's title above. I refer you there so you can begin to familiarize yourself with what's going on – at a rapidfire pace – in the allied fields of the new disciplines of nerocomputational biology and neurophilosophy. I expect these fields to dominate moral philosophy on many fronts in the near future. This is becoming a field of keen interest for me as part of my overarching interest in the field of "ethical anti-theory." You, who thus far have been a dogmatic skeptic viz. an atheists' capacity to be good and/or moral – should learn from this little lay review that the very concepts of good and moral as well as their co-ordinated moral behaviors, moral reasoning patterns, and our basic beliefs of good and moral have socio-biologistically evolved over eons of pre-theistic consciousnes and have become encoded synaptically in the human brain as a function of species survival and flourishing. Thus, and once again directly contrary to Mark Shea's thesis, there is absolutely no irrationality nor incoherence when claiming that atheists are capable of being moral and good without belief in nor reference to God.  In fact the converse would appear to be true. Now I believe this new field opens up a tremendous opportunity for us finally to usurp the empirical neurocomputational/biologistoc models in order to argue ( at some later point of a considered, coherent, and persusive development of the thesis) that the Holy Spirit functions so as to neo-write, neo-prototype, and even over-write and modulate this "given" natural hard-wired synaptic moral self. I wonder whether such an alleged re-writing by the Holy Spirit ( this re-writing of course must be intended to encompass many modes of alteration of intact human nerocircuitry) could be experimentally studied via PET and MRI scans et.al),for example, by actually demonstrating that a correct reading ( where correct must be specified to include the spiritual sense of reading. See article by Mary Healy in Letter and Spirit, vol.2, 2006) and on-going study of Scripture. If so, and I believe this is experimentally possible, it would allow us a powerfully new force of persuasion, and would grant us a new credibility in the face of current skeptics and detractors of the faith. It would also allow us to stop making stupid and ignorant assertions! Note that your Sat 16, 7:33am post alludes to this very process – i.e. that "listenting " to the ( supernatural voice /word) is efficacious in re-writing our synaptic selves. ( Not your words but your meaning  ). You also allude to a re-writing that would go beyond or stretch as you phrase it "out of its [ human beings] grasp", that is, an other-than merely human, socio-biological/ evolutional/naturalistic capacity. This particular claim of "beyond", if verifiable by neurocomputaional models, would be a salutary "victory" for the faith indeed. But we must pause at length here to ask, What is required to show that any new circuitry laid down by Scripture is indeed "beyond" naturalistic origins? That it could not have originated in the species. As a starter, we might argue that the occurrence of certain "values" ( a variegated term) communicated in the New Testament do not, in fact and quite contrary to the evolutionist theory of a natural, socilo-biologictic origin of moral knowledge, recurrently appear in the collected moral knowledge of the species. Thus, these N.T. values are not ubiquitous amongst the human species as would be required to support any skeptical claim that Scriptural moral knowledge - pertaining to its genesis and font - reduces to the same evolutionary processes as the large body of hard-wired natural moral knowledge. Enough for now. Fishman, keep reading and processing as I think and hope you are. And try not to shoot too much from the hip.       

  • Guest

    Your theory is interesting and at least now I understand why you are so persistent on insisting to use the first definition from the dictionary for morality , when Christian's insist that the second is more proper to be considered at all times.

     

    However I suspect your faith in the scientific community is significantly stronger then mine.

     

    Consider for instance the fact that those people putting forth various versions of guided evolution or intelligent design  theory.  These theorist, while well educated, fairly credible and puting forward some very interesting arguments, are largely ignored and regarded as crack pots by many of their colleges who simply insist it is unscientific to mix religion and God.  No matter how many 'weaknesses' their are in current theory that can be explained by nothing other then intelligent intervention most scientist simply take it on faith that the weakness will be accounted for as we gather more knowledge.  

     

    However , i don't want to disparage you in your line of research,  there has actually been some interesting conversions in the physics communities specifically because  of intelligent design theory.  I'd love to see that start happening in the phycholgy as well.

  • Guest

    To Fishman: My previous post had nothing to do with intelligent design! Did you read the article? Did you look up te works of Churchland and other neurobiologists? Here u go a hip shootin' again.

  • Guest

    skeptics and detractors of the faith"  and my point was rather independent of the merit for the research.

    I don't think the skeptics and detractors of the faith, for the most part will be impressed by any evidence no matter how convincing, because they generally lose interest in real science as soon as it stops supporting their world view.

    Consider Stephen Hawkins’s support of the multi-universe theory, which, as I understand it form a laymen’s perspective is basically a theory out of quantum physics which was dismissed some time ago, for lack of evidence. It does have the ‘advantage’ of being almost impossible to prove or disprove. It was revived by Hawkins’s however because the evidence for creation has become almost insurmountable in the realm of physics/cosmology.

    There are a number of universal constants, which to the best of our knowledge could have random values.  If any one of them was off by in the 10th of a decimal place there would be no one here to observe that they were off because life would not exist.  With the implication that without intelligent intervention the existence of life in the universe has vanishingly small odds, thus making intelligent intervention seems to be at least highly likely from a scientific standpoint, given the current data.

    Hawkins’s solution is that obviously ( because there can’t be a God) it must be the case that every possible universe is actually in existence at this moment in such a way that we just happen to be in one that actually supports life.  ( it’s even worse then it seems at first , because this is every possible universe at the quantum level, so a new universe is created every time a quantum particle makes a ‘decision’ which happens literally billions of times a second.)

     

    No amount of science, no matter how rock solid, will convince the skeptics that there is a god.  It may however sway some of the undecided scientists out there. 

     

    In reality , just as there is infused knowledge because of such infused morality, there is also infused ‘anti-morality’ , people choose to listen either God or the Devil .  That is what St. Paul meant when he wrote “it (the battle) is not between flesh and blood but powers and principalities”.

     

    You will have very little success in convincing those who are of the world to listen to God with things of the world.  “If they are unwilling to listen to Moses and the prophets they would not be convinced even if someone were to come back from the dead”. 

    They have not been have they?

     

  • Guest

    I did read the article you suggested.  Actually when I read it I realized I read it before about 6 months ago, but I gave it another go so it was fresh in my mind.

    The interesting thing is that it supports the point I've been trying to make that you have opposed. 

    "It is comforting to think your moral intuitions are reliable and you can trust them. But if my analysis is right, your intuitions are not trustworthy. Once you realize why you have the intuitions you have, it puts a burden on you" to think about morality differently.

    So what criteria should we use then? “Obviously” logical ones that are superior to our ‘instincts’ which are, after all, a product of blind evolution.

    Look how the article ends:

    “Hauser said the only difference is that the second scenario is more emotionally charged — and therefore feels like a different moral problem, when it really is not: "In the end, the doctor's intent is to reduce suffering, and that is as true in active as in passive euthanasia, and either way the patient is dead."”

    This is exactly same line of reasoning that can be used to justify what Hitler did.

    I can just hear the conversation now between the ‘scientist’ and the soldier.

    ‘Well, you may find wiping out a whole race distasteful, but that is merely an evolutionary response and it is not to anyone’s greatest advantage.  If you really evaluate it clear mindedly you will find that a rational man would overcome his emotions and not allow blind forces to control him in doing what is truly to the greatest advantage of everyone involved.  After all the Jew’s are a dirty disadvantage Mud race and the sooner they are prevented from spreading their poor genetics into the rest of the populace the sooner the master race and thus the whole world, will move towards greater prosperity. We need to help evolution, because modern technology has interfered with the natural process for too long.’

    — infused anti-morality my friend.

    The discussion thus far has been very interesting, but you never did answer my question.

    Starting from the atheistic hypothesis explain why Hitler should not have done what he did?

    Of coarse the article could be used to make an interesting argument that anyone who does not believe in God is mentally ill and should be hospitalized ;) ( that’s is a joke:)

     

     

     

     

  • Guest

    To Fishman: When I asked u to read the article I guess I should have reminded you to interpret it correctly! The article categorically refutes all of what you claim. Let's review what the article claims: (1) Morality is hard-wired in the human being ( and same vector- processing of neuronal structure exists in all terrestrial vetebrates according to the latest research in the field). That is,morality is structurally instantiated by neuro-computational, parallel processing prototype circuitry and modulaterd biologistically especially as pertains to its most basic moral computational neuronal framework. The article's claim flatly refutes any notion of "infused" morality. In fact,the concept "infused" fails all and any attempts at demonstration or verification. How would you go about proving that a given moral value you or anyone possesses was "infused" or simply acquired socailly? (2). Many traditionally revered  instances of so-called morality ,such as altruism, ( see the arfrticle) are  now known to be intrinsic to the brain's hardwire and do not function as previously claimed,namely, as the human being saying "No " to his own safety, for example, for the sake of risking the safety of an unknown other. It is a hard-wired Yes all the way down. (3). Your reference to the quote about how we must not trust our moral intuitions – used mistakenly by you to support your ludicrous "infusion" claim – simply argues that some earlier acquired human moral beliefs and their accompanying executional motor skills,that is, some aspects of  our moral knowledge acquired very early in our moral evolutioniost/social history which now seems "intuitive" may no longer suit as our best moral response since we are no longer dwelling in caves and jungles where human and animal threats are a constant. It argues rather for our more reflective and nuanced engagement with the socially conditioned, learned, and thick resevoir of one's generally good, much more moral, and much more plurally sensitive culture today. I trust these points help to get you back on the rails of this article. Hitler? Easy! A lack of learning of his culture's social-moral skills undoubtedly stemminmg from a host of contingent deprivations and possibly from biological conditions as well. Your turn now: explain the 'bad Popes" and the breadth of a horrid Chrisitian legacy, which I asssume you would agree, should never have happened since these Christians were filled with "infused morality' on your own account. Oh, you will probably wiggle out by saying that the infused moral knowledge was "in them". But their sin and abuse of it were at fault.

  • Guest

    The claim I was suggesting that the article supports is that from the perspective of the atheistic hypothesis Hitler’s actions were nothing more then an interesting adaptation to his social-moral climate and if he had been successful in his military campaign could easily have been viewed as a successful evolutionary advance.  The elimination of some other races and the deaths of millions being a inconsequential side effect of his adaptation. An atheist has no right to say Hitler should not have done what he did other then to note that his adaptation failed to secure it's intent.

     

    This is enterely a seperate issue from 'infused knowledge' or 'infused morality'.

  • Guest

    I have not tried to use this article or any other as proof for the concept of 'infused morality'.  I hold that such a proof is likely impossible. From a compu-biological perspective such infusion would, probably, get lost in the chaotic nature of the brain and appear as 'randomness' or the brain talking to itself.  I had not noted any attempt to refute the idea of 'infused morality' on your part up to this point in time. So my didactic thus far had not significantly addressed the idea.

    As far as ‘infused morality’ goes it is actually very easy to sustain it’s existence from the perspective of Christian moral philosophy given two assumptions necessary for a person to be Christian at all.

    1)     God is a real person

    2)     God communicates regularly with human beings

    From that perspective it should be obvious that anyone who listens to God has far superior moral knowledge because they are guided by an omniscient being who directs their actions. 

     

    The explanation for ‘bad popes’ and the evils of Christendom of coarse is very simple:

    Not everyone listens to God and in fact many people choose to listen to the devil.

    Also, I think very few people listen perfectly to God and most people vacillate in what they choose, out of a combination of human weakness and a damaged nature itself, commonly referred to as the effects of ‘original sin’.

     The bible puts it this way.  ‘The sinner sins 1000 times a day the righteous man 50 times a day’. More over the message of the Gospel is insistent that if we ‘put on the mind of Christ’ we can be transformed into a ‘new creation’.  That through the miraculous power of God it is possible actually do good, something far beyond normal human capacity.  We are promised God is there to help us accomplish this transformation if we will it.  That is the ‘good news’ , that God is real, that God is good, that God is Love and wills us to succeed in not sinning ( a superhuman task). Do you really think any of the saints got where they did through human effort? No they were shown the way by the only being who truly knows it.  God himself , in the person of Jesus the Christ.   

  • Guest

    Fishman: Bad Popes, horrid Christian historical legacy, and Hitler. All are cases of learning disabilities. Hitler is not an " interesting adaptation" but a tragic and horrific instance gross of mal-adaptation and learning disability. Of course atheists have a "right". What "right"  need  be granted in order to regard all of the above cases as morally reprehensible, deserving of the nth punishment, utterly dispicable….other than membership in the human race! You are exhibiting unenlightened chauvinism once again, a piece with your claim that only "believers" have the moral capacity or the "right" to judge affairs. If atheists decry Hitler in the terms above,what is added to these terms of disapproval by the further qualifier, " Yeah!! And a sinner too!" ? The vast resevoir of good and bad had been neurally constructed long before belief in God appeared. That's what gives atheists the "right." Besides, what about  all the thousands of Chrisitians in Germany who followed Uncle Adolf including the  German "Nazi" Church. Where was their belief in God; where was their halo of "infused morality". Which reminds me : you have the annoying habit of dodging the questions I pose to you, why is that?

  • Guest

    which question did I dodge?

  • Guest

    You dodged the question of infused morality by sublimating it to belief in a God who communicates with humans, which argument, once again, is circular : it reduces to your saying "There is infused morality because God infuses it as a person who communicates." If that is your explanation, I suggest you do the only intellectually honest thing which is to recant! You glossed the Christian legacy question as I thought you would , saying " Folks just aren't perfect disciples or listeners."

  • Guest

    what makes a mal-adaptation horrific? Isn't the only difference between a mal-adaptation and any other adaptation weather or not it enhanced survival?You continue to reject my point about atheism , but have yet to produce a single piece of contrary evidence. To answer your latest question:"What "right" need  be granted in order to regard all of the above cases as morally reprehensible," Morality is a code of conduct that any rational person would follow in a given situation.  In order to have a 'right' to declare something morally reprehensible you must first define what is and is not rational in a given situation so that you may then define what is and is not moral.  Otherwise you have no 'right' to do so because you violate the definition of the words you are using.From the atheistic perspective 'rational' is only an illusion it is an evolutionary adaptation driven by blind and chaotic forces.  Had the forces been different what is 'moral' or even 'rational' would also be different and so much as those forces are different for different individuals what is 'rational' for one person may not be 'rational' for the next.  Thus atheists have no 'right' to insist something is moral because their initial hypothesis and world view violates the definition of what hey insist upon being true thus collapsing into shattering contradiction of terms.The only criteria under which any adaptation can thus be measured from an atheistic standpoint is weather or not it was successful in procuring the goal of the actor.  The only reason Hitler is mal-adapted, under the atheistic model is that he did not win the war. Hand he won the war and propagated his ideology he would have had a successful adoption according to the rules of natural selection regardless of the emotional reaction of other people who might feel what he did was ‘horrific’.

  • Guest

    It appears I was unclear in answering your question. I had not intention of dodging it.

    Let me define this term that until now I have used somewhat casually.

    I have already defined more then once morality.

    Let me now define 'infused' — To put into or introduce as if by pouring.

    so infusing is something that comes from the outside. More over I have already indicated that the mechanism in place is a kind of active listening.

    So it follows that anyone who is not actively listening will lack any infused knowledge of morality or otherwise.

    So I did not mean to dodge your question about bad popes, but simply don't understand how it relates to the term.

    The fact that 10 people may have higher , lower and no degree of infused knowledge should be of no more shock to anyone then that 10 students in a lecture hall have higher lower or no degree of understanding for the material presented by the instructor as depends on there ability and willingness to listen to the material presented.

    Your question seems to be kind like asking. So why did those guys who didn't attend the lecture not know what was going to be on the test?

  • Guest

    lwall,

     First off, let me say that I agree with what you are saying.  Part of the instinctual nature of humans and others is to protect ourselves.  Through environmental learning, we can recognize that being nice to others can in turn protect ourselves.

     Further, I suspect that the same brain patterns seen describing "morality" could be applied to "good manners" or even "style".  But I think this would be more of a description of what is "culturally appropriate", thinly disguised as morality.

    Further, I would not object to any claims that most people, including Christians and Atheists, probably view morality through this fuzzy environmentally infused lens.  Most people could not articulate clearly why something is moral anymore than they could articulate why some things are "bad manners".  Yet all of this can lead people to do generally moral things and occasionally horendous things.  Of course this brand of morality is precisely the kind of morality Cardinal Ratzinger warned against prior to is papacy.

    None of this is the morality that Christians are called to live by.  Nor is Christian morality merely a set of arbitrary rules.  Christian morality can be arrive through reason when applying the belief that God is love and we are called to conform our lives to Him.  All Christian morality and rules is therefore merely attempting to determine which actions are in conformity with God's life-giving, self-giving love.

    The saints and martyrs are witnesses of people who have lived (and died) by this code of conduct (and beliefs) and have been persecuted precisely because they were going against the grain of society.

    Now I know you are going to argue that either:

    1. This is rooted in a belief in God, and yes it is.  But it could also be rooted in a belief that morality is based on agape love.  In any case, all rational logic must start with one or more premises, so a belief in God as a premise is hardly a disadvantage.

    2. The saints are also conditioned by the environment of the Church.  This may be true, although saints such as Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross acted the way they did in spite of the sins around them in the church.

     

  • Guest

    Fishman and Anyone : (1). Again, Fishman, if there is no way to separate what beliefs are infused and which are learned, then you must recant your claim to "infused moraity." The notion and your belief in it literally now become non-sense. Since you can proffer credible way to discern infused beliefs from non-infused , thus you have demolished your own right to continue holding to  "infused belief." Your feeble attempt to say "infused" just means "coming from outside" fails because  every synaptically encoded moral belief comes from the outside, beliefs allegedly infused as well as beliefs acquired from social learning all come from outside!  Upon these points, all current neurobiologists and neurophilosophers agree. And their conclusion is empirical and experimentally reproducible and verifiable as oppossed to your piece of dogmatic romanticism. (2) My point about bad Popes and the horrid leagcy of Christianity escapes you? Wow! I am shocked. Simply, Fishman, if belief in God and the supposed salutary  effects that His infused moral virtues engender in the human being, then we should be able to discern a statisitically significant difference in the moral beliefs and motor skills between the haves and the have nots; the atheists/ humanists versus Christians. But there is no such difference except for Christian narrowness, crimes against humanity for His sake, and gross hypocricy across the ages. Certainly, the moral-historical legacy of any given belief system witnesses to its "truth claims", thus the horrid legacy of C. speaks to its falsity or else to other conditions relating to its [ inadequate] teaching and formation of its adherents.(4). Your invoking "listeneng" in an attempt to rescue "infused" fails . All moral knowledge, moral relevance valencing, contextual nuancing progress – all of this is a complex form of listeneing/learning either from books, Scriptures, life's lessons, socialization, exemplary prototype human models. Morality has very little use of so-called rational moral theory. This too is conclusively shown and is demonstable in human brains as revealed with neurocomputatiional models,MRI  and PET scan experiments…so its all listening,adjustment/adaptations…. all the way down. No infusion. No neuronally isolated "rational system" that consitites your own and anyone one elses moral knowledge synapses. This biological, socially contexted and exquisitely socially sensitive genertaion, utilization, and adaptation, including s loss and/or augmentation, is an amazing neuronal computational process.  Further, it is all there is to morality. This neronal process is ubiquitous in the human and in all terrestrial vertebrates. Yes, we see incipient and expressed morality in higher vertebrates becausr they possess the same neuronal processes.We are its highest most complex instance ,primarily because of our language capacity and because of our greater number and complexity of recuurent as oppossed to recursive parallel processing. (5). Morality is absolutely NOT a code of conduct nor is morality perpicuously or fundamentally rational. The results of recent and on-going verification experiments from computer neurocomputational models as well as the study of discrete human brain lesions by D'Amasio and others confirm that even so called rational beliefs -including picking out the conditions for deployment and how one deploys them etc.- are a function of a host of complex synaptic circuit simultaneity. Now Fishman it is non-sense to hold on to an completely outmoded and false "faculty model" of brain cognitive function, namely " Okay, let's see here…we have reason, we have will, we have free will,we have intelligence, we have sensory areas, we have imagination.." Gone, Fishman, gone!! Poof!  The current science is destructive of the very  groudwork upon which most of your dogmatic and attenuated moral view rests. Besides, the right to judge good and bad has very little to do with holding to infused moral values nor rational thinking especially of the sort you envisage. We do not function as moral creatues by a rational deduction particular maxims from universal principles. Rather, morality clearly exhibits a functionalist view of brain states and not a discursive one.

  • Guest

    Gary T : How to do you uphold or distinguish "culturally appropriate" from "moral" as your opening sentence assumes. "Cuturally appropriate" when the term refers to the settled yet somewhat fluid beliefs and behaviors which prove to be in conformity with, egendered by, and approved by a long cultural narative tradition and its social contexts; and also having had the necessary time to test them out, so to speak, adjust, and refine them as well as enshrine them in its educational and juridical institutions is all there is to morality! And, yes, morality may generate horrendous things. However, the rather fixed and hard- wired cognitive synaptic framework of the human brain across time and cultures mostly guaranteess a raeatively homogeneous and constant set of moral knowledge in the race. There will of couse be abberations and inter-cultural diffrences. Horrid things happen when cultures cease listening to and adjusting to the large resevoir of social listening, stop listening to the human race as with the examples of bad Popes, the horrid Christian historical legacy including good ole Christian Germany and its treatment of the Jews, as well as many other historical instances of bad cultures having become bad because having tuned out the voices of the larger world, having become isolated from a corrective human dialogue that would have adjusted them; under the aegis of One Grand Idea or One Savior/Dictator. Communism. North Korea. As to your closing remarks re: rational undergirdings….belief in God is NOT a rational starting premise. Belief in the Incarnation, Eucharist, Resurection, revelation etc. are NOT rational premises. They are beliefs. I see them as important beliefs of a sui generis kind. But rational they are not, thus you can not even begin to go down the rational road of argument as you want to do because your premises are not rational. But if your premises are accepted, then…

  • Guest

    from lwall – "Morality is absolutely NOT a code of conduct nor is morality perspicuously or fundamentally rational"

    In other words lwall:

      The definition you are giving to the word morality is not the one used in the article or in normal conversation or in any of the augments I have made. This is exactly the reason there has been no resolution to the discussion, because we are not talking about the same noun.I have tried to point this out as I suspected it was the case several times and am glad to see you finally confirm it yourself although buried in a great deal of other verbiage. You might as well define a fish is a quadapedal mammal of genus Canis and then take exception when someone states fish can breath in water.What you have done is to redefine morality in a way that is opposed to it's definition in philosophical and standard dictionaries as well as common usage and then take exception when someone uses the noun with it's normal meaning.May I suggest that you would be better served by introducing the word ethic, which can be defined as 'a set of rules used to determine ones actions'. 

    Then by using the normal definitions of the words it is completely reasonable to state what I think you really mean to say anyway which is that atheism does not preclude the existence of an ethic.  I’d even go further and suggest that atheism requires the existence of some kind of ethic because it presupposes that man is entirely governed by the physical laws so his behavior should fall into categories that can be derived as a factor of those same laws.

    It does however remain true that atheism, while not precluding the existence of an ethic, most certain does preclude the existence of morality because the existence of morality presupposes the idea that man is capable of choosing rationally.

    If it is true that man is not capable of choosing rational it is equally true that man is not capable of acting morally as is accorded by the normal definition of the word.

  • Guest

    I'd also like to point out that the exception that Diest usually take with athiest that they have no 'right' to repeatedly insist that others follower thier ethic is completely justified by your definition.  If an ethic/morality is NOT a rationl process it is completly moronic to try to insist or change someone elses ethic/ morality through the use of 'reason'.

  • Guest

    Now, as pretians to my suggestions about the existance of infused morality what I said was that I would be very suprised if you could physically document or it's existance with the use of scientific intrumentation.  My reasons for this are much the same as why you cannot know both the vilocity and direction of an electron.  Your ability to understand intial conditions would make the possible of observing it's occurance impossible because of the mathmatical Choas.  I did not suggest it was impossible to verfy the existance of such a phenomina by observing historical events.

    A simple case in point from catholic theology is the declaration that Mary the mother of Jesus was sinless.

    to be sinless one must never oppose the will of God.

    It was God's will that Jesus the christ be crucified.

    So it is nessary that Mary the mother of Jesus also actively willed he be crucified as did God.   

     It is not possible that Mary overcame her maternal instinct for protection of her offspring from her physio-historical context so if she actively willed the crucifixtion  it could only be because she had knowledge that came to her from an extra-physical source.  From 'outside' physical reality.  This incidently is the kind of 'outside' that I mean.  supernatural knowledge which leads to conduct not based on observable physical reality or reaonably conditioned form previous life expierences.

     

     

     

     

  • Guest

    I also feel I should point out:

    Given lwall's definition of morality the statement:

    'athiesm precludes morality' as asserted in the article is absolutley FALSE.

    Of coarse as I've already pointed out this akin to agreeing that given the definition that a fish is a mamal of the genus Canis fish cannot breath underwater.

  • Guest

    Fishman: I quit. There is no point. You BADLY need to read and take some classes. Basiacally, you have no clue what your are talking about I am sorry to say. And please, these aren't my definitions ( you continually refer to "your definition." ) I am describing the conclusions of the most up to date science/philosophy of the day especially the work of Churchland. It is a true pity you are unable to comprehend what any of this means. Try buying and reading the book Neurophilosophy At Work by Paul Churchland for starters. Then a bunch of courses at a nearby college department of philosophy.

  • Guest

    lwall wrote:

    belief in God is NOT a rational starting premise. Belief in the Incarnation, Eucharist, Resurection, revelation etc. are NOT rational premises.

     

    I agree these are beliefs, not rational premises.  Nor did I attempt to claim otherwise.  However, I would also assert that the belief "there is no God" is also not a rational premise, since it too cannot be definitively proved.  So we are all stuck with stating beliefs as a starting point.

     

    lwall, I'm not all together certain I followed everything in your post, as I think you had 1-2 typos that made it a little unclear exactly what you were getting at.  The point I was trying to make is that morality as we are called to believe as Christians lies in the belief that we are to conform our lives to God – that is to love.  From there, we can make rational decisions as to what actions are in conformity to that principle.  In some cases, the exact choice may be unclear and yes time-testing will yield greater clarity.

    I realize that this definition of morality does not jive quite exactly with how you defined it.  But it is how our faith defines it.  And it can and should lead us to do greater things than the world's morality may lead us.

  • Guest

    To Gary: Understand that the reason I took this circuitous route of ten posts ? was to educate readers to the currecnt non-theistic views of morality -its acquisiton, its learned socio-biologicsal essense,  its now scientific philosophical workings shown by experiements in neuro anantomy and physiology of the brain based on current computer models. Any intelligent Christian should know these for it is here where the opponents of all we believe hang their hats! How else can we be intelligent listeners amd witnesses. We can do neither if we simply heap charges of incoherent, irrational, incapable of the good, and immoral. They – atheists- are none of these as if a monolithic entity. For the last time, atheism is not a program itself. It is fundamentally a denial. Besides, the topic of atheism started by Shea had brought out so very, very, much ignorance on this post, including that of Shea himself. There needed to be much correction. I have not yet describe just how all the new neurophilosophy can be beneficially used by us in improving upon Catholic education and our on-going sanctification. It also affords the Church a sorely neeeded theory of inspiration at large. Great openings here. On last thing : our faith does not, thank God,restrict morality to the rational following of precepts although it has mightlily tried to do so and with awful results!  First, there is no such thing in the human being as a rational following of principles because our rational synaptic selves are inextricably intwined with other emotional, imaginative, relevance-weighting, and motor skills conforming to that circuitry, all of which is variably turned -on at any given time and is mallable as to the richness of this interconnectedness …. 

  • Guest

    lwall – to some extent you seem to have missed my point about definitions. 

     

    My reason for distinglishing 'your' definition was to to refute it as 'a' definition used by some group or even the majority of philosophers.

    'your' definition however is not the one used by the majority of the people you are talking to ( or even the majority of people you would encounter if you talke to random people on the street).

     

    The mistake that you made is not unlike if I were to walk into a room and several people in the room were telling me about the problems they were having with there computers.  Specifically they were talking about the flicker in thier monitors and the dirt that kept collecting in thier keyboards.  They would be confused and communication hampered if I were to without qualification and very good reason insist that they were not having problems with thier computers but with thier periphrials and not bother to explian the difference ( and the nessity for the being a difference) between what they meant by computer and what I meant by computer.

     

    computer – a device composed of a central processing unit(CPU) , arthimitic logic unit ( ALU) and operational memory.

     peripherial any device that attaches to a computer – monitor, printer, mouse, keyboard , hard drive etc.

     

  • Guest

    customarily a profession first begins ( when defining terms for a discussing) by explaining was it is nessary to redefine the term.

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