Message Received

Back in the day, when the Republicans had not made complete clowns of themselves, Rush Limbaugh was fond of observing that the Dems had so prostituted FDR's legacy that now their message was "The only thing we have to offer is… fear itself!"

Yusta be funny. But now Rudy Giuliani has reached the point where he out-Dems the Dems in his transparent, not to say loony, attempts to squeeze the last drops of juice out of 9/11 fear manipulation.

Here's the story for those not familiar with it. A while back, Rudy's giving a speech to the National Rifle Association when suddenly, right in the middle of the speech, his cell phone goes off. The Wall Street Journal describes the scene:

This was no emergency call. His cell phone rang in his pocket during his speech, which is itself unusual; most public officials turn theirs off during events, if only out of courtesy for the audience. Mr. Giuliani went on to answer it and carry on a routine "love you" and "have a safe trip" exchange with Mrs. Giuliani while the crowd (and those of us watching on C-Span) wondered what in the world that was all about.

His campaign aides spun the episode as a "candid and spontaneous moment" illustrative of the couple's affection. We might believe that if we hadn't heard stories of similar behavior by Mr. Giuliani as he has campaigned around the country. During one event in Oklahoma, we're told he took two calls, at least one from his wife, and chatted for several minutes as the audience waited. That episode followed Mr. Giuliani's eye-popping disclosure earlier this year that, if he's elected, his wife would sit in on Cabinet meetings.

 Now bear in mind this is one of the sane, sensible Republicans. He's not some barking mad person who thinks the Constitution is still the law of the land like Ron Paul. He's a Respectable Mainstream Candidate. And so, with all the sensitivity to the nuances of human behavior that you might expect from Kang and Kodos, he engages in some of the most preposterous pandering in many moons.

No, he doesn't say, "Abortions for some! Tiny American flags for the rest!" Instead, in his bizarre, ham-fisted way, he telegraphs to all the red-staters that he's not some thrice-married blue state Slicker with a mistress. No sirree! He's a Family Values™ kinda guy! Indeed, he's a Bible-quoting Family Values™ guy. So we get the delectable spectacle of Rudy’s First Homily to the Christianists on the Gospel According to John (Revised Giuliani Version). That’s the passage where, instead of saying to the woman taken in adultery, "Go and sin no more" Jesus instead says (more or less), "Rudy Giuliani is a great guy so get off his back because he is a Bible-Quoting Family Values™ kind of guy! If you don't vote for him, you are judgmental!"

That's rich enough. But then comes the piece de resistance. He leads into his theme slowly:

"… And my personal view of it is I need God's help for everything, and I probably feel that the most when I'm in crisis and under pressure, like Sept. 11, when I was dealing with prostate cancer, or [when] I'm trying to explain death to people, which unfortunately I've had to do so often."

Did 9/11 you 9/11 catch 9/11 that 9/11 subtle 9/11 subliminal 9/11 message 9/11 encrypted 9/11 in 9/11 the 9/11 Strength 9/11 for 9/11 These 9/11 Days 9/11 message? It’s enough to make a person believe in Bible Codes. But, of course, all that pandering to faithheads could get him in trouble with his Own Sort, the people who roll their eyes at That Kind of Thing, so he quickly clarifies that he's not one of those loony Theocrats:

"So it's a very, very important part of my life," he said. "But I think in a democracy and in a government like ours, my religion is my way of looking at God, and other people have other ways of doing it, and some people don't believe in God. I think that's unfortunate. I think their life would be a lot fuller if they did, but they have that right."

Well and good. It appears that Rudy has hired the Focus-Group Testing Firm of Screwtape & Co, who provide the following analysis of the Giuliani Campaign in one of their internal memos:

He can be made to take a positive pleasure in the perception that the two sides of his life are inconsistent. This is done by exploiting his vanity. He can be taught to enjoy kneeling beside the grocer on Sunday just because he remembers that the grocer could not possibly understand the urbane and mocking world which he inhabited on Saturday evening; and contrariwise, to enjoy the bawdy and blasphemy over the coffee with these admirable friends all the more because he is aware of a "deeper", "spiritual" world within him which they cannot understand. You see the idea—the worldly friends touch him on one side and the grocer on the other, and he is the complete, balanced, complex man who sees round them all. Thus, while being permanently treacherous to at least two sets of people, he will feel, instead of shame, a continual undercurrent of self-satisfaction.

Having established his unreliability to two different constituencies, Rudy then continues On Message. And just in case you didn't yet get that message Rudy spells it out for you, and helpfully explains his weird cell phone stunts at the same time:

Giuliani also addressed a cell phone call he took from his wife, Judith, last week during his speech to the National Rifle Association, an important appearance because Giuliani clashed with the group when he argued for tougher gun control as mayor of New York.

"And quite honestly, since Sept. 11, most of the time when we get on a plane, we talk to each other and just reaffirm the fact that we love each other," he said.

"Sometimes if I'm in the middle of a very, very sensitive meeting, I don't take the call right then; I wait. But I thought it would be kind of nice if I took it at that point, and I'd done that before in engagements, and I didn't realize it would create any kind of controversy," he said.

Translation: "People of Earth! By my 'spontaneous' simulation of mammalian affection behavior you were supposed to see a demonstration of my warm humanity and respond with the appropriate social bonding behavior. However, your inferior central nervous systems failed to react in the manner predicted by my Rigelian campaign coordinators. I must therefore remind you that I am Warm and Human, as well as 9/11 reminding 9/11 you 9/11 that 9/11 you 9/11 should 9/11 be 9/11 very 9/11 afraid 9/11 and 9/11 vote 9/11 for 9/11 me 9/11 to keep 9/11 you 9/11 safe 9/11!"

Boy, I sure am glad that a sane normal person like Giuliani is one of the main representatives of the Mainstream of the GOP and not a contemptible prolifer like Ron Paul. Thank heaven FOXNews and the party elders have been laboring to prevent Paul from so much as having a chance to speak so that men like Giuliani can have the shot they deserve at dominating the conversation in the GOP.

Mark Shea

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Mark P. Shea is a Catholic author, blogger, and speaker.

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  • Guest

    Mark Shea is so often negative and depressing.  Yet he's everywhere it seems.  He spits not quite vitriol, but unhappiness?  Republicans have not made fools of themselves.  Why not name who you mean?  Ron Paul has shown to be one of the biggest hucksters in the world, with his pork, and with his connections and taking advantage of them.  Check out wnd.com some time.  If you don't live near NYC, perhaps you can't understand the impact of 9/11.  Perhaps you SHOULD begin to try.  There are many excellent Republican candidates.  Mr Shea, it seems like you are always mocking someone.  Why not look into the reality of Ron Paul?

  • Guest

    I hold no brief for Paul.  I merely note that there is something strange about treating six-time Planned Parenthood donor Giuliani like a mainstream candidate and a legitimate part of the Big Tent of "conservatism" while giving Paul the stiff arm.

    I am not always mocking someone.  I am usually mocking politicians because there is so much to mock.  And I have to disagree: there are no "excellent" GOP candidates.  There are a number who advocate, to various degrees, positions which ought to be repellent to any serious Catholic (Giuliani leading the pack with his enthusiastic support for both torture *and* abortion, not to mention his contempt for the sacrament of marriage) and a couple of candidates (namely, McCain, Huckabee, and Paul) who, while not advocating some form of intrinsic moral evil like the rest of the pack (and all the Dem candidates) are still highly problematic for various reasons.

    I wish I could believe that Giuliani is down for the count and this new scourge of what was once a principled conservative movement was doomed politically.  But I won't really be convinced of that till after Super Tuesday.  I think he stands a good chance of roaring back.  So I do what I can as a citizen now to warn people away from this man who is about as contemptuous of the Church's teaching as any Democratic candidate, yet who is mysteriously supported by many Catholics.

    By the way, the last time I wrote (on Huckabee) some readers demanded to know why I hadn't criticized Giuliani.

    Damned if you do, damned if you don't…

  • Guest

    I do not understand how Giuliani can be a member of the GOP, being that he unconditionally supports the murder of humans still in their mom's womb and same-sex marriage. In fact, how can he be a Catholic. Mr. Shea is not being negative or mocking — he is just stating the obvious, but apparently it is not as obvious as I thoughtCry.

    God bless!

  • Guest

    Keep right on mocking, Mr. Shea.  Rudy's attempted make-over is as phony as Hillary's.  No serious Catholic has any reason to support him for president.  In my opinion, he represents all that is wrong in religion.

  • Guest

    now come on guys, be fair, Rudy kicked homeless people out of city shelters, that's the action of a bona fide conservative, and besides he has to follow along after Hilary sweeping up her debris, how easy can that be. just finished a discussion with a young person who lives in NY and is a bit out of touch with politics, being drowned in diapers at the moment, who had to be persuaded RG is in fact a card carrying Republican, because she has always assumed he is a democrat just on the face of how he runs the city

  • Guest

    The media doesn't want the people to start getting any ideas that we can actually make a difference in this country.  That is why Fox news and the rest of the low life media have fought hard to keep Ron Paul off of prime time.  I don't know if I would ever vote for Dr. Paul because of a few of his stands, but I'm glad he spoke up against the so called war on terror and globalization.

    I dont have much hope for this years elections by looking at what we have running.  Our country is like a sinking ship, and it seems the candidate that can convince us the best that we are smooth sailing is the one who will get elected.

  • Guest

    So funny and so true, Mr Shea.  I love reading your articles.  This one is right on target.  Giulini's hypocrisy is obvious.    I know who I am not voting for, but I still don't know who I should. There really are no excellent GOP candidates.   I thought maybe the SC debate would help, but it left me more confused and also angry at how they treated Paul. My last beacon of hope in a liberal media was Fox, but no more.   Why can't there be a civil and substantive debate over the issues (I'd really like to see a meaningful discussion about Paul's ideas some of which are contrary to the rest of the pack), without taking personal stabs at each other?

  • Guest

    Does anyone know if Allen Keyes is running?  

  • Guest

    Scripture says that you get the leadership you deserve.  In other words, the pandering leaders generally mirror the body politic.  I think that's why there's not a worthy candidate in either party this term. (the noble ones have been weeded out).

    I live in the Bible Belt and am very suspicious of any evangelical preacher–especiallly one turned politician.  Plus most evangelicals, including Baptists are either ignorant about Catholic teaching, at best, or highly bigoted towards Catholics.

    McCain is a pandering, prideful, slick and well-fed politician–albeit a "Real" war hero, (Just ask him).

    Guiliani–Mark covered him…(too bad he gives Italians a bad name.)  Even his first cousin, a priest down here, won't support him despite the fact that they share the same last name.

    Ron Paul, well mocked for his candor in proclaiming "the sky is falling", Whether it is or not, at least we know what he believes…and since he's totally pro life, there will be more of us to catch the falling sky…

    Thompson:  The sun may "always be shining" but it sure doesn't bring a smile to his face.  And his one liners may work on a retirement cruise during cocktails, but American Presidents need to show a tad more spunk…especially when campaigning….like get in the race wholeheartedly BEFORE election day.

    Mitt Romney:  The first name says it all, "Get back on the set of 'Casablanca'.  My kids actually thought he was  a reincarnation of some 1940s movie star.  I assured them that reincarnation is nota doctrinally sound  belief.

    Who else is there…..hmmmm, well, I guess you could count Obama and "Billary" for the Dems.  YOu can probably find them assisting at the Aurora Family Planning center.  Forget that….abortion is actually too gruesome for them to witness and portraying it is simply propaganda.  Maybe you can catch either one of them on a Jesuit campus…

    As for Edwards, he's either chasing an ambulance or primping.  Look in a NC mirror I'm sure he has them programed to reflect only him.

    So, now you have my astute and not a bit cynical analysis of the 2008 slate of candidates.

    Thank God I know the victory  has been won by the blood of  Jesus Christ.  He has overcome the world…including whoever is elected in November.  Therefore, I will hold fast in my faith, sticking with prayer and fasting that we faithful may persevere knowing that God's perfect Will is being accomplished for our eternal salvation.  

    See you in the Heavenly Jerusalem where the Lamb rules from his

    Throne of Grace with mercy and justice and love.  

     

  • Guest

    Rudy Giuliani lived the traumatic, horrific 9/11 tragedy. It is legitimately in his psyche. He's also lived his brand of the Catholic faith. As he would say – that's unfortunate. My guess is that rude Giuliani will have a lot of cell phone time with his wife as he fades from the pack.

    I'm waiting to see which Republican will be the next recipient of Mark's mocking scorn. This bunch is too easy Mark, so be charitable. We'll have to vote for one of them at the end of the year.

    Like you commented: We’ll be damned if we do and damned if we don’t.

  • Guest

    In response to Patty K… Yes, Allen Keyes is running.  Here in Iowa he was frozen off the ballot in the Republican caucus.  I know because my wife and I voted for him in our caucus and when the vote was tallied, he was recorded as having received 0 votes.  Makes you wonder what country you live in…

     

  • Guest

    It's OK Mark some of us loyal readers understood where you were going with this article, I thought it was right on the mark.  Giuliani needs to go back to being Mayor of NY, Romney needs to become Govenor of Michigan, and the rest can duke it out in the most Christian way possible so as not to offend the Christian base that will get them elected in November.

  • Guest

    Vote for me, I'm Catholic!! Foot in mouth

  • Guest

    Ah, the mother lioness has come out of her cave (all good connotations, please).

    Thank you elkabrikir for that "in a nut shell" analysis of our fearless leaders. The angels sing and the politicians cry when your comments go public. Thank God the future of this country is in hands like yours (literally) and not in those who clutch cell phones and microphones. 

  • Guest

    I have heard that Alan Keyes is running again, but he has always been ignored by the party, so what difference does it make?  I did some research on Fred Thompson, and discovered that NARAL hates him and that he had a great pro-life voting record in the Senate.  He, of course, is also being ignored, but I'm hoping that will change after South Carolina.

  • Guest

    I happen to like Ron Paul. Just what are the reasons he is so "problematic"?  Please enlighten me.

  • Guest

    Goral,

    when I reentered my "cave" I found it had been smeared with Vasoline by the 22 month old.  Don't worry, she stopped when the jar was empty–it was a small container and the carpet, albeit the best in the house, already reflected the red clay so prevalent down here.  I scraped off the surface layer.   I suppose my husband will be laying maple flooring for recreation  sometime soon…….

  • Guest

    Maybe Fred Thompson will win South Carolina, Rudy Florida, and Ron Paul Nevada, giving every Republican candidate a turn at victory.  What a pathetic slew of candidates, no wonder there's not a frontrunner.  This country has manifested these so called "leaders," and we're reaping what we sow.  Heaven help us all.

  • Guest
    In this morning's Wall Street Journal there is an editorial titled "No Standard Bearer" that bemoans the lack of luster in what we have seen from the Republican candidates to date
    And at FirstThings.com, Charles J. Chaput, O.F.M. Cap., archbishop of Denver is quoted from a January 11, 2008, presentation in New Orleans, “Catholic Identity in the American Public Arena.”
    The very outspoken archbishop speaks to the issue of whom one can support for office. In item no. 8 of the FT piece he writes, "So can a Catholic in good conscience vote for a pro-choice candidate? The answer is: I can’t, and I won’t. But I do know some serious Catholics—people whom I admire—who may. I think their reasoning is mistaken, but at least they sincerely struggle with the abortion issue, and it causes them real pain. And most important: They don’t keep quiet about it; they don’t give up; they keep lobbying their party and their representatives to change their pro-abortion views and protect the unborn."
    Then he concludes with "Catholics can vote for pro-choice candidates if they vote for them despite—not because of—their pro-choice views. And they also need a proportionate reason to justify it.
    I had an interesting exchange with a youth minister at a Servite high school last week on the subject of liturgical music and dance. He and his youth ministry wife favor the "kumbayah" tunes of contemporary church, and their emotional appeal. They also go along with the thongs of dancers at the annual school mass that accompany the "gifts" and to which parents give accompanying praise.
    I referred him to then Cardinal Ratziner's 2001 essay on the subject. He said he didn't agree with it. 
    My question to Mr. Shea and others. How does Mr. Guliani feel about the Eucharist? Does he feel that he's going out to meet the Lord, or just in another kind of dance like the youth minister and his wife? No one seems to mind their sense of it at the schools and churches where they minister.
    Archbishop Chaput ends his article with this: "We’re better citizens when we’re more faithful Catholics. The more authentically Catholic we are in our lives, choices, actions and convictions, the more truly we will contribute to the moral and political life of our nation."
    My "proportionate reason" to not laugh at Mr. Guliani is that I sense that he will do whatever he can to keep me safe. And when I read my copy of The Constitution — which I guess is the same one Mr. Paul glances at — keeping me safe is the one unarguable thing a President of the United States must do.
  • Guest

    Nobody mentioned Huckabee….any comments?  I thought he might be the better of the bunch.

  • Guest

    "now come on guys, be fair, Rudy kicked homeless people out of city shelters, that's the action of a bona fide conservative"

    That' s NOT called for!  That would be as bad as me saying that EVERY "Liberal" never met an abortion he didn't like.  I hope that's not true; and that there are plenty of "Liberals" out there who respect life.

     I think you need to go and re-read the series on faith and reasoning that CE has been featuring.

  • Guest

    VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!

     

    CHECK OUT STOPRUDYNOW.TV and spread the word about Rudy's Left Wing Agenda. 

     

    We as Catholics must rise up and boot out this false republican.  He's pouring money into Florida in the hope of winning.  If he does, it will put new life into his campaign, and he can be thriving coming Feb 5 (Super Tuesday).  Please pass this info onto anyone you know who is in Florida! 

  • Guest

    I'm getting to the point of looking at which Republican candidate that is (claims to be?!) pro-life is most likely to draw independent and some Democratic votes in November.  I KNOW that all the running Democrats are vehemently pro-choice, so I cannot see how I can possibly vote for them "in spite" of this.

  • Guest

    Little doubt media is the biggest factor in allowing political elites to control parties and prevent populists from attaining influence. Their goal is to dumb the electorate down with questionable morality through attrition. Since secular Jews control most of the major media corporations, the actual problem boils down to worldly semitic values replacing time-honored Christian ones.  

  • Guest

    I am totally amazed at the level of vitriol aimed at the ex-mayor. I understand that Ron Paul is not doing too well, but then, neither is Giuliani. Are you a libertarian? I had thought that you were likely to be independent and just looking for the best candidate.

    Dick

  • Guest

    at rosary making this morning, one mom mentioned that she hated to "waste" a vote on someone who doesn't have a chance to win……..

    to which I answer as Elka–Jesus Christ HAS won the fight.  We only have left the "battles" .  And these battles will point only to our own personal outcome—not the outcome of the world.  What is left for us is to be accountable for all of our actions.    How can we turn away from what we believe–what we KNOW to be TRUTH–in the voting booth.  The Truth that we are made in the image and likeness of God.  He makes, has made, will make all people.  People cannot be made without Him.  How can we possibly consider a candidate that does not respect life? 

     

    This is TRULY a no-brainer, right?

     Congrats on your newest "people" Elka!  Hope all is well.

    Jesus, I Trust in You!

  • Guest

    Mark, will you please do an article on Ron Paul's "pro-life" position?  I read an interview with him that left my jaw on the floor.  The man's concept of pro-life is apparently nothing even remotely like the Catholic view.  He seems to view the states' rights as supreme to moral law.

    My problem with your article on Huckabee was that I could not fathom why you were zeroing in on him – not for a position he held, but because he did not articulate it to your satisfaction.  With the other candidates suffering from much larger, more difficult problems, it made no sense to single him out for something so small by comparison.

    Yes, Giuliani is extremely problematic for a Catholic & I am floored by the lengths I have seen people go to make excuses to legitimize voting for him when there are several better pro-life, pro-morals candidates.

    McCain is problematic on so many different levels – though not to the extent that Giuliani is.  Have Catholics so quickly forgotten his sneering at the "religious right" for criticizing him?  McCain-Feingold?  McCain-Kennedy? etc.  His only positive is that he's not Giuliani & he's not Romney.

    And we don't need more of the same political "transformers" ala Romney (so incompetent as governor that he could not get re-elected) or Thompson (who voted for McCain-Feingold, was a lobbyist including for pro-aborts, and whose character is… shall we say, lacking or perhaps slacking?)

    So Huckabee may not walk on water, but contrary to the slams against him, he not only doesn't claim to – he has humbly stated that he is a sinner in need of redemption like everyone else.  No, he doesn't walk on water, but he is still head & shoulders above the rest of the pack!

    Our divided GOP is going to give us another generation of liberal judges – but this is far worse than Bill Clinton – we are staring down the prospect of a Democrat presidency with a Democrat congress on top of more politics as usual.  Huckabee is the closest thing to Hope (pun intended?) in the pack!

  • Guest

    lpioch,

    Mike Huckabee has already demonstrated both in his home state of AR and nationally that he has the ability to draw the votes of groups that the GOP normally does not – ie. independents, Reagan Democrats, blacks, hispanics, women, young people.

     

    Our country is badly divided & we need someone who can work with both sides of the aisle – Huckabee has done that & it is for that reason that so many in the GOP have brought all their guns to bear on sinking his candidacy.  This kingdom is divided & in danger of falling…

  • Guest

    gadjmljj,

     Go check out mikehuckabee.com and hucksarmy.com for more info – I think you will be pleasantly surprised… 

  • Guest

    Thanks for making my day with your remarks. Goral & elkabrikir. Did or did not Mark rip apart Huckabee earlier? Yes there are some unknowns in Huck but it appears he is faithful to his wife, promotes family values, is for the Right to Life, and faithful to what he believes the Bible teaches so to me he appears to be more Catholic then any of the other Catholics Catholics running or a lot of people who claim to be catholic.

    "Goral,

    when I reentered my "cave" I found it had been smeared with Vasoline by the 22 month old. Don't worry, she stopped when the jar was empty–it was a small container and the carpet, albeit the best in the house, already reflected the red clay so prevalent down here. I scraped off the surface layer. I suppose my husband will be laying maple flooring for recreation sometime soon…….

    Submitted by elkabrikir on Wed, 01/16/2008 – 9:48am"

  • Guest

    I agree with Sola Gratia -Gov Huckabee will draw votes from those groups. He will do so because he is a unique candidate.  He is a pro life liberal and so all the liberal groups will love him.  His economic policies sound like they were written by the NY Times.  He would be as weak in foreign policy as his political predecessor Jimmah Carter.  But he isnt running for President he is running for the nomination of the Republican Party…. why should the Republicans nominate a liberal to  run against libs Hillary or Obama?  What choice is that?

    I think the republicans should nominate someone who represents the values and standards of the party and then let them duke it out in November with ObamaHill. 

  • Guest

    Sola Gratia I wrote my post before I read yours thanks for expressing my views. I believe Hucks position on abortion reflects the fact that he knows history and the  of the parallels the of abortion and slavery arguments. It appears  Ron  Paul only knows his unique   view of history  would  disagree with a lot of the framers of the constitution  and  others  Like Abe Lincoln and generals Grant and Sheridan. 

  • Guest

    Elka, I share your sense of frustration. Did you read the remarks of Sen. Rick Santorum about Sen. John McCain's problematic positions on Life issues? If what the honorable Senator from Kansas says is true (and I have no reason to doubt him) McCain would sign bills funding human embryonic stem cell research as well as his refusal to support any piece of pro-life legislation he deems "divisive" (translation: any legislation the Democratic committee chairs might get upset about). But here's the kicker: the latest poll asked voters if the election were held today and it was either HillBilly or O-bomb-a and one of the three front-running GOP's, McCain came up about even, with the others many percentage points behind. I do not relish having to choose between a NARAL sock puppet and an indifferent-to-Life Republican. It appears the rest of the country isn't as concerned with a candidate's views on killing babies as much as his or her views on immigration, taxation and "economic issues." 

    Ken Larson: As far as Rudy the Rascal is concerned, those phone calls he received on his cell phone were from a woman the Church says he is not legitimately married to, i.e. not his "wife." Civil authorities may say he's married to her, but civil authorities say a lot of irrelevant things. The man has no moral grounding, IMO. Period. As an ambitious, amoral politician he has more in common with Benito Mussolini than with faithful Catholic Alan Keyes (who is running as an independent).  

  • Guest

    I, too, would really appreciate a balanced, objective review of Ron Paul, since from what I have seen and heard of him (which is admittedly limited), he seems a consistent, principled candidate.  I have found it easy to find articles both extolling and blasting each of the other GOP candidates, but information against Dr. Paul seems hazy at best.  In fact, a trusted friend has directed me to the Catholics for Ron Paul website.  I was appreciative simply to see his name finally mentioned in a CE article!

     

    And I also ALWAYS appreciate Mr. Shea's sense of humorLaughing.

  • Guest

    JimAroo,

    I have heard the line that you are parroting so many times I could cite it for you – but on what specifically do you base your accusation of Huckabee being a fiscal liberal and another JimmyCarter on foreign policy?  (And do economics and foreign policy trump or even equal the moral issues?)

     

    geraldgrandfather,

    Thanks!  I was so pleasantly surprised to hear Huckabee bring that abortion-slavery connection up in the public square!

     

    Stuff,

    Regarding Ron Paul, this is what I'm referring to -

    http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=John+Stossel%3A+Ron+Paul+says+live+and+let+live&articleId=60ade9c7-8509-43cd-be56-8a718384ea96

    This is mind boggling – it is a rather unusual variation on the "I'm personally opposed, but I can't impose my morality on other people". 

     

     Personally, I also think Ron Paul's cut and run idea on Iraq is immoral, too.  Whether or not we agree with the war, it's already a done deal – we went in and took over.  The whole reason the US was propping up Saddam for so long was because he was the only lunatic among the many there grasping for power who was deemed capable of stabilizing that country.  Taking him out re-opened that can of worms.  We did that and, as Pope JP II said, we have a responsibility to stay with it until we can fix what we broke (to badly paraphrase him).

     

  • Guest

    I am a Michigander.  Yesterday was our Primary.  I would have had to drive 55 or 60 miles (one way) to have voted, and I did not.  Why?  Because there are NO Republicans on the ticket.  There were RINOs and "red" Democrats listed, but no Republicans.  So, I didn't bother.

    Will I vote in the General Election?  Yes.  And I will vote Republican no matter who the candidate turns out to be.  Why?  Only to keep–as someone else said–Billary or O-bomb-a from getting a "landslide".

  • Guest

    Cooky642,

    I am curious – how do you define "Republican"?

  • Guest

    Interesting articles from the Huckabee camp today

    http://www.mikehuckabee.com/?FuseAction=Blogs.View&Blog_id=1198

    and earlier

    http://www.mikehuckabee.com/?FuseAction=TruthSquad.ClubGrow

     

    If it is liberal & Democrat to spend money on roads, education & healthcare when & where needed, as long as it is done responsibly by someone who shares my moral beliefs and views on things like subsidiarity – then I need to change my party affiliation! 

     

    (Except that even though I am a registered Republican, I don't consider myself affiliated to any govt. party – only my faith.  Wondering if that makes me a neo-Reagan-Democrat?)

  • Guest

    Cooky, I'm sorry you weren't able to vote.  Is that because you moved and would've had to have an absentee ballot?  Or are there no voting booths in your area.  If that's the case,  it would seem like your civil rights were violated….60 miles is quite a hike or drive.  And if you are in U.P. you might have to portage a canoe to travel 60 miles……

     

    I live in SC.  I thought y'all might be interested in Huckabee's level of support here.  He has grass roots supporters (tens of them) out every day in key intersections of my city of 50,000 smiling and waving signs.   I admire their enthusiasm which is contagious.

    Ron Paul has numerous signs up.  McCain has a few sprinkled around, and I've seen one Thompson sign…Thompson was in town yesterday.  I'm still in a quandry about for whom to vote.

    Well, it's supposed to snow here…big news!  My kids have been readying athletic socks and sandwich bags.  They double as gloves.  We haven't had snow for 4 years, so they're excited.  As am I. 

     

  • Guest

    Thanks elkabrikir, keep us posted, on the snow that is :)

    With your rug well smeared you can say goodbye to dry feet this winter.

  • Guest

    Sola Gratia,

     Thank you for the link!  I do see how this "hands off" sort of approach can be morally problematic for Catholic voters, and it will definitely give me something to think very seriously about.  Just to play "devil's advocate" though, what if allowing states to set up their own laws on morally potent issues like abortion and traditional marriage will actually help to turn the moral compass of our nation around?  I ask because I was under the impression that at least some individual states had enacted laws that effectively and significantly reduced abortion rates.  

    Another few tidbits about Paul that prevent me from just writing him off as a candidate is that, as far as I know, his voting record has been consistently pro-life, he has delivered thousands of babies as an OB/GYN, and has actually written a book which, I've heard, politically and morally argues the innate dignity of human life. 

    As far as the war in Iraq, the more I hear it discussed, the more my head spins.  I just don't know what to think about it.  I'm not familiar with JPII's statements about it, but I thought I heard somewhere that he refused to call it a "just war."   How does that influence our moral responsibility to continue or "cut and run"?  (Personally, I really wish there were another option!!)

    Thanks to all for the informative discussion! 

  • Guest

    Speaking of Rick Santorum, why doesn't he run?

  • Guest

    11:15 PM Snow! Luscious Snow!

    Dear "Stuff" my opinion on whether to "cut and run" is this:  Let Goral tell you what he thinks.  He has thought about these issues for a long time, is savvy, gets to the heart of the matter, and loves Christ and his Church.  

    In my heart, I don't want Americans lingering in a foreign land as peacekeepers.  However, I know there are strategic and peacekeeping reasons for doing so given the fact that troops are in Germanyl,Korea, Okinawa, etc….

    Regardless of whether the war was a just one from its inception, the issue of whether to stay or leave is a separate one and must be based on the current reality. What kind of "other option" are you thinking of?

  • Guest

    "Now bear in mind this is one of the sane, sensible Republicans. He's not some barking mad person who thinks the Constitution is still the law of the land like Ron Paul."

    I kind of like the idea of our country being governed by a constitution.  We should try it again.

    I've been very impressed by how principled Ron Paul is.  He is very pro-life (he is an OB-GYN).  Some of his confusing sounding statements stems from his reading of the constitution that in many cases the Fed simply doesn't have the right to do many things that it does already.  This reading by the way is very consistent with JPII's view of subsidiarity.

    What I like most is that when the Republicans say "the government should be for X" and the Dems say "the govt should be against X", Ron Paul raises the question "Is this even the government's job to care?  And does the govt. have a constitutional right to care?"

  • Guest

    I expect Mr. Santorum may have burnt a bridge or two when he backed pro-abortion Senator Arlen Specter over a pro-life Republican in the PA Republican primary a few years back. By the way, former Senator Santorum is from Pennsylvania. 

    Sam Brownback is the Senator from Kansas — and still is!  He is the exactly the guy who fits all the descriptions the postings on this thread say we lack right now, but he dropped out a couple of months ago due to running out of money.

  • Guest

    GaryT,

    Absolutely, yes!  Implicitly, it is the govt's job to care and it has not just a constitutional right, but a constitutional obligation to care!

    That's because our govt. is us – that's supposed to be the whole point of a democratic republic.  The Constitution is very important and should not be disregarded or treated lightly, but ultimately it says what we decided it should say and was designed to be changed if we so deemed it necessary.  We do not serve it; it serves us. 

    Stuff,

    My response would again agree with elkabrikir's!  Whether the war was just or not isn't the point here – we have a moral responsibility to do what we can.  Not just because if we leave, many vulnerables will suffer far worse than they had at Saddam's hands – but also because it is a plain statement of fact that we would be setting off a power grab, another war, in the entire Middle East with Iraq (or its pieces) as the prize.  You can't morally end a war by leaving it for someone else to deal with.  It's sort of like we adopted the child of an abusive father & it turned out to be a lot more difficult than we bargained for.  We can't just abandon that child and walk away.  At least not until we can find a foster parent or the child comes of age, so to speak!

  • Guest

    Up here we also say – snow luscious snow! But we use a different adjective.

    “Dear "Stuff" my opinion on whether to "cut and run" is this:  Let Goral tell you what he thinks.  He has thought about these issues for a long time, is savvy, gets to the heart of the matter, and loves Christ and his Church. "

    A mother of a newborn enters a request laden with heartfelt praise and defers this task to me, it’s not something I wanted or asked for. How can a gentleman not respond? Honor is at stake.

    This is also my response to Stuff. The militant Moslems came to us, buildings collapsed and bodies burned. Innocent civilians were literally used as canon fodder. We responded as we had to, I repeat, we had to. We did it measurably and judiciously and we accomplished a major part of our objective honorably.

    I agree with the good lady that we can not be the world’s peacekeepers. That is the mandate and commission of the entirely impotent and pathetic UN. That’s all I’ll say about that. As it is we’re it. Our brave troops serve and are fulfilling their duty honorably and sacrificially. Allow them to do it. Yes, bring them home as soon as possible. Support them and their mission and their Commander in Chief. We can have policy differences; let’s debate them within the confines of the previous sentence.

    Those who publicly, and through inappropriate forums question, challenge and criticize our mission in Iraq and that area are treacherous scuandrels. Denigrating your country in dire times is as sinful as disrespecting your parents.

     In the context of this discussion and this election year rhetoric; the only statement we should be hearing from the candidates regarding this war is: I support our troops in their mission. God keep them safe on the battlefield and bring them back to their beloved country and families as soon as possible Period.

    My apologies for the late response. Deep sleep, the cousin of eternal rest got the better of me. 

  • Guest

    Elkabrikir,

    Congratulations on your growing family, and on your beautiful weather (we're just getting some of the white stuff now)!   I really have no other options in mind, I was just honestly expressing a desire for more – kind of like going to a restaurant and wishing there was a larger menu to choose from.

     I also want to thank Sola Gratia and goral for your thoughtful and candid responses about Iraq.  I think deep down I knew I agreed with you all along, but found it difficult to sift through rhetoric and passionate opinions to find some truth about what is happening.

    My constant prayer through this election is only that God's will be done! 

  • Guest

    You guys are great!   Thanks goral.  Succint and on point…your hallmarks….

    stuff:  "our hearts are restless until they rest in you (God)"  He is our only true option and only he can bring actual peace to this situation and our understanding of it.

    good night  

  • Guest

    Goral,

    Elkabrikir was right about you!  Well said!

     

    Elkabrikir,

    Congratulations on your newest soul from here as well!  Their generation has the brightest hope to escape our exodus in the culture of death!

     

    Stuff,

    Thank you!  I understand & I totally agree with you – in fact my kids & I have been marathon praying the Rosary & the Chaplet of Divine Mercy for our country – what a mess we are.

     

    God, please grant us the president that we need to bring our country back to You, rather than the one that we deserve…

  • Guest

    SolaGratia: 

    I was looking for the perfect short and sweet prayer for a president.  We'll use yours with our nightly Hail Mary. Thanks 

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