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Catechism 2425 – Economics/Capitalism/Socialism

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4:32 pm
May 14, 2009


ajkather

New Member

posts 2

Post edited 10:02 pm – May 14, 2009 by ajkather


Hi.

I recently have been doing a lot of soul searching and thinking about the economy and capitalism and how we are moving towards a sense of entitlement for things that the government should do “for us” as well as “to us”.

The Catechism says in 2425:
“2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.206 Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.”207 Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.”

What bothers me about this statement is “reasonable regulation” and "individualism".

Also, I don't believe that someone pushing themselves to be the best they can be while pursuing their own individual goals, dreams, and ideals is a bad thing. I think we should live life pursing our individual goals while not trampling on top of others in order to acheive this. That is individualism and it is the opposite of collectivism. Now, if you are pursuing your own self-interest building your success on the backs of other people, that is not right. I feel a solid moral and spiritual foundation is key to assuring this and well as living a life in Christ.

What, who, and how is reasonable regulation determined?
I personally feel that every attempt to have “reasonable regulation” ends up having the exact opposite affect of what the purpose that brought on the “need” for regulation. If we want to have a call to stringent moral and personal “self” regulation, that is what I think we need to have. That is the only “reasonable” self regulation that is acceptable.

It has been proven that 2 people will engage in free trade if both parties feel they will benefit or derive value from the transaction without harming anyone else. That is totally Lassiez Faire Capitalism. In Capitalism, you WILL have people that fail and who make mistakes and lose. Winners and losers are made through capitalism.

I also do not think that the economy is a “fixed pie”. It is a complete falacy if someone gets rich, then that is making someone else poor. The economy is like a candle. When you light the candle, the candle can continue burning, but it can also light something else.

I believe in human rights and that people should not be exploited in order to be taken advantage of. I also do not believe laborers should hold a company hostage when they feel they are entitled to more than they actually deserve. Greed is not an exclusive sin to those with lots of wealth. Greed can be just as pervasive in lower rungs of the socio-economic class of humanity. Greed and Envy are sometimes confused with the tenets of capitalism.

It is my personal belief that 2425 should call to remove “reasonable regulation” with “moral restraint”. Our personal moral compass should regulate our ambitions and intentions while persuing our dreams of being prosperous and building wealth so we can take care of our family, tithe to our church, and give offerings to the charities and non-profits that take care of those who are totally incapable of taking care of themselves.

Yes, I am an “idealist” and some may say that what I’m proposing is totally naive and unrealistic. But, I truly believe that private enterprise established under capitalism is they only true method to achieving the best society we could imagine.

God Bless you all and god bless this country.
~AJK

6:39 pm
October 5, 2009


Michael

Member

posts 372

Ajakather:

You said:

It is my personal belief that 2425 should call to remove “reasonable regulation” with “moral restraint”. Our personal moral compass should regulate our ambitions and intentions while persuing our dreams of being prosperous and building wealth so we can take care of our family, tithe to our church, and give offerings to the charities and non-profits that take care of those who are totally incapable of taking care of themselves.

While that would be great in a world of honest people. But I think that the Church rightly understands that some regulation is a requirement of government – even regulation on the government itself. We shouldn't accept the very protestant tendency to individual improvement. I forget which 19th century encyclical it was, but one of the popes said something to the effect that the individual is perfected in society.

In Christ,
Michael

"The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been difficult and left untried."

"The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of Cheese."

– GK Chesterton

8:24 am
December 15, 2009


fishman

Member

posts 103

"Also, I don’t believe that someone pushing themselves to be the best they can be while pursuing their own individual goals, dreams, and ideals is a bad thing"

This statement has in it a conflict and a misunderstanding of catholic teaching in the matter which goes to the heart of the original question.

Let me ask this. Is it possible to be your best while persuing your 'individual' goals dreams and ideals?

Remember Jesus is the catholic example of the 'best' man. He gave up his 'inidividual' goals, dream. etc in persuit of the will of his father. In catholic theology to be ones 'best' you must subject yourself wholly and completly to the will of God. God is not an individual idea and cannot be presuied individually. Only in the context of the community.

11:57 am
December 16, 2009


DWC

New Member

posts 1

Good comments. I too share your viewpoints. I also realize that the church can and should present herself wtih idealistic standards — yes, that is the ideal … the striving for justice.
But our practical experience tells us that little is pure, easy or perfect. For all the downfalls, captilism still seems to display the best set of rights, incentives and practices to facilitate an improved society … warts and all.

4:24 pm
December 16, 2009


noelfitz

Member

posts 229

DWC
it is great to hear a new voice here. You are very welcome and I hope you will continue contributing to our discussions. Reading your post I am reminded of Winston Churchill who claimed that the "[t}he inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery.

Changing democracy to capitalism give another insight due to Churchill – "Capitalism is surely the worst economic system, except for all the others that have been tried."

Please consider posting to the Forum "Faith and Life" in the CE Roundtable

God bless,
NoelFitz.

In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.

9:44 am
January 22, 2010


fishman

Member

posts 103

"captilism still seems to display the best set of rights"
Where have you seen capatialsim put into practice in such a way that would justify this statement?
The united states has a limited socialism , not capitalism as it's current economic structure. We have government funded schools, we have social security and welfare, we have a minimum wage act.

I agree that what we have in the united states works resonbly well, as imperfect as it is, but you would be hard pressed to call it capatalism.

I think if you did away with all of the above things, as some hard core repoblicans suggest our society would be considerably less just and a much less pleasant place to live.

1:26 pm
March 11, 2010


ajkather

New Member

posts 2

Michael said:Ajakather: You said:

It is my personal belief that 2425 should call to remove "reasonable regulation" with "moral restraint". Our personal moral compass should regulate our ambitions and intentions while persuing our dreams of being prosperous and building wealth so we can take care of our family, tithe to our church, and give offerings to the charities and non-profits that take care of those who are totally incapable of taking care of themselves.

While that would be great in a world of honest people. But I think that the Church rightly understands that some regulation is a requirement of government – even regulation on the government itself. We shouldn't accept the very protestant tendency to individual improvement. I forget which 19th century encyclical it was, but one of the popes said something to the effect that the individual is perfected in society. In Christ, Michael


I believe you take my words out of context.  We do belong in a world where free will exists to do good and evil.  St. Thomas Aquinas believed in the idea of natural law, property rights, and individual liberty and wrote about these ideas in Summa Theologica.  John Locke postulated in his Two Treatises on Government that the existance of the state is to protect the natural rights (life, liberty, property rights) as the basis for the social contract for instituting government.  Government is made of fallen men just like any other part of humanity, so to think that government regulations will make things better is naive. 

There is a difference between Mercantilism and Capitalism.  Capitalism exists when persons voluntary trade with each other because each participant believes they benefit from the exchanges.  Property rights and the right to contract should be enforced by government since it is one of the most important elements of liberty and to pursue one's happiness.

Many people have been brainwashed into thinking Capitalism will not govern itself and must always require intervention by the state through the use of force.  I reject this false premise and do not believe the government should reward one entity at the expense of another.  That is a story taken directly out of Merchantilism.

Individuals are born with natural rights from our Creator.  These are gifts from God that we must use and cherish while not infringing on the natural rights of others.  There is nothing "Protestant" about this.  It is a self evident truth.



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