AlvinaL said:

Post edited 6:07 pm – October 1, 2009 by AlvinaL

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saintstephen,
The Bishops and the Priests don’t “assume that there is a population of Catholics who inherently know Latin.”
Latin is the mother language of the Catholic Church.
Kyrie eleison.
Lord have mercy.

Alvina, I am thinking: what did Christ say to the Apostles as he ascended to his Father? "Latin one another as I have Latin-ed you"?

Sacred language has always been the heart of the Catholic Church and yes Latin is the language of the Vatican. During the Vatican II documentary on the celebration of Mass it was understood that each Diocese is to establish and celebrate Mass in the vernacular language of the parish.

This becomes more difficult when cultural differences are apparently dispersed into multi-lingual and customary traditions which sometimes conflict and even separate the faithful as it almost did at the time of Christ between Gentile and Jew.

What defines Sacred in the Word? The Word is Sacred and the Word made flesh is Sacred and the Sacred Heart is Sacred and so Christ said before he ascended, "Love one another as I have loved you" meaning that Love is Sacred.

In the hearts of believers is Latin more Sacred than love? Yes, in Latin lovers Latin is most Sacred and that is why the Liturgy in Latin is offered to appeal to the heart of Latin lovers. To be considered also are those to whom Latin makes no appeal and so the vernacular language also considers what appeals to the heart.

It would require a tremendous re-teaching of the entire Church to create a Liturgy in Latin which appeals to every heart and so Vatican II allows the appeal to the heart using Sacred language which is most clearly understood and appreciated.

Kyrie eleison for some does not have the same appeal to the heart as "Lord have mercy" and that is why one follows the other so that Latin does not become mute in it's appeal to the heart.

My parish is essentially Germanic and so our community involves new members through many venues such as Faith Formation, Befrienders, RCIA, Parochial School, Adoration of Christ,Hospitality Ministry, Liturgical Customs Development, Parish Council and on going Capital Campaigns for funding of all programs.

Unfortunately I do not have access to new parishioner counts except what I read in the bulletin which names the new members and I can say we have several per week. We do not have any offered language class for Latin and mostly do not use Latin in any of our Liturgy with the exception of only a few phrases. I have to go outside my parish to obtain Latin Liturgy about 40 miles away, although to be honest, the Latin Liturgy does not hold as Sacred for me and my family as the Sacred Heart which loves. We visit many local parishes out of love and love the Word and the Word made flesh in many languages and customs.

All in all our parish of Saint John the Baptist is a leader in Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration and have a large Befriend-er Ministry and all other ministries are very active including a new school built only a few years ago which is now taxing our ability to fund.

We have chosen this parish because we found a home across the street to walk to all parish activities although many times we have sought to purchase properties located next door to our favorite parishes. We recently sold our 4 acre retreat which we bought from the Diocese next door to a small country Church named Saint Henry and have felt already the loss of the simple quiet beauty of country life in the Spirit of Catholic love which Saint Henry offered. We needed the access to more community services lately as we care for my aging mother in law and niece in our home and they require frequent medical care. My wife also was unable to adapt to country style living as she also needs more access to services not available in Saint Henry which is very remote part of our state and more difficult to frequent community services.

saintstephen,
Thank you for your response. I respect your love of the traditional Latin Mass. We must know and respect both Forms of the Mass. I attend the traditional Latin about once a month in our parish. I prefer the English Mass, the interaction of the Presider and people at the Novus Ordo Mass. I especially like broad range of Scripture readings of Year A, Year B and Year C and weekday Mass readings Year 1 and Year 2.
Many Catholics and new converts to the Catholic Church openly admit that the traditional Latin Mass is more distant for them. People want to hear and understand what the priest is saying throughout the Mass.

Alvina:

Thanks for the link.

You'll get no disagreement from me that the mass in English is more approachable.

I hope that the new translation provides an opportunity to re-engage both those new to the faith and those who have fallen away.

In Christ,
Michael

I have not been following this discussion in detail. However tonight I tried to read the topic from the beginning. The first thing that struck me is the contributions from our friends Loretta and Alvina. I would like to hear from them more often as they are very sound. I suspect Alvina does not contribute here too often as she and I have disagreed politically, but not on the basis of religion.

I read:
"Mass at St. Peter’s is far more meaningful when everyone is able to pray together."

I disagree. My wife and I used to go to Rome twice a year for a long time and attended Mass in St Peter's. It was always in Italian and seemed to go on and on, especially the sermons.

Some time ago I wrote to the ICEL. I objected to the translation of "credo" into "we believe".

I also had some other problems, which I hope the Holy Spirit will sort out.

Saintstephen:

One can only gaze in stunned, wide-eyed wonder at your ability to mis-comprehend a topic after having the facts explained clearly on numerous occasions – with multiple links to authoritative sources (versus your opinion or sources having nothing to do with the argument, including your most recent).

The answer to this entire thread was in the form of a copy of The New American Bible … This copy is a direct translation from Hebrew to English without passing first to Latin and was recommended for use at the Mass in English.

The ongoing discussion has to do with the translation of the mass – not scriptural texts that may be used as part of the Liturgy of the Word. I addressed this point in the last paragraph of my Sept 20 (5:14 p.m.) post – more than a month ago, now, for anyone keeping track.

This -

The Supreme difficulty with the Latin Mass is that Vatican II directives do not encourage the Latin Mass and in fact direct the Mass to be ordered to the vernacular language of the specific geographical regions where the Mass is offered and that translations of the original text of Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic into English be accomplished with collaboration from the “separated brethren” which has been completed around the year 1970.

has been shown to be false on numerous occasions by reference to official Church documents. Liturgical translations for the mass to the vernacular come from the Latin text alone. End of story.

Why you continue to attempt to spread your false notions and sophomoric argument – and seem to prove yourself incapable of reading with comprehension – must, I suppose, be left to personal conjecture.

I have been convinced that no Catholic can claim to be “solid” in the faith and hold current convictions of the Church unless they open themselves to learning and updating their understanding of not only Liturgical Directives but also current Catholic Doctrine…

This is good advice…you should take it. A subscription to the Vatican site is inconsequential since you cannot seem to process the information coming in.

By the way, when may I expect an apology for your lie? To refresh your memory, in a post on August 29th (7:32 p.m.) in The return of the Arians you said of me:

If you are Catholic how can you be so blind that you actually declare that protestants validly consecrate bread and wine? That is the most absurd reasoning a Catholic has ever foisted on me. I think you need to go back to Catechism class in about 9th grade and listen to your catechist.

You were challenged to find where I have ever said such and have failed to provide anything. You lied for all to see. I should note that, based on your evinced character over the years, I don't really expect you to say "sorry.” I think you will find some way to justify, to your own satisfaction at least, that you have committed no wrong. It’s probably a foregone conclusion that you will post something derogatory but, in charity, I hope to be mistaken.

Additionally, I did take the liberty of perusing on the IrishCatholics site and have to agree with many of the criticisms leveled at you (under your different handles) by the members there – including Inedifix II's perspicacity in assessment of identity. It is not the atheists’ criticisms of the faith that stick – but their criticisms relating directly to your person and character. It does not give me any satisfaction, however, that these or my own assessments should be true. I would wish that you would amend yourself and speak both truthfully and thoughtfully when in a discussion.

In Christ,
Michael

Saintstephen:

One thing only the lyres cannot do is obedience to the Word and the Word made Flesh and they shall never receive any rest.

And one thing only the liar cannot do is obedience to the Word and the Word made Flesh…and he shall receive no rest.

If you saw my first post it was only because you were a lurker on the site. I actually remember your first post though you cloaked yourself then in your real name, even going so far as to reproduce a pictures of yourself. There are of certainty a few who remain here who may claim longer membership than I, but just as certainly you are not numbered among them.

You show yourself deceitful now as before on this site – and "across the pond," to boot. You have been called out for that which you are (globally, one might say) but show no remorse for your infidelity. The only wool on this site is that which you name "saintstephen" but which has gone by other names before…and been shamed for those as well. When will you discard this "handle" in favor of another? Woman or man, saintstephen, your "fingerprints" identify you all too soon. Your wool hides nothing for long.

Good luck with that.

Had you simply admitted error, I would gladly have welcomed you as a brother in Christ.

In Christ,
Michael

All:

I found an interesting letter written by Pope Benedict XVI clarifying the translation of the Mass in the convergence of the Roman Missal and the Latin Rite. I thought you might find this interesting clarification when he acknowledges the tensions created in parish life when those who "refuse" to let go of the Latin Rites and those Priest’s who are not well versed in Latin.

It should probably come as no surprise that the motu proprio says nothing like that which saintstephen proposes.

In Christ,
Michael

Post edited 5:53 am – October 30, 2009 by saintstephen

Michael said:

It should probably come as no surprise that the motu proprio says nothing like that which saintstephen proposes.

In Christ,
Michael

Michael, I am not Pope Benedict XVI so I did not propose this, he did. Obviously you did not take the time to read Pope Benedict XVI’s response to the obvious concerns raised in the erroneous interpretations of Motu Proprio by misguided lay and even certain obstinate Priests and Bishops. The primary fault of the SSPX movement was the misinterpretation of this and other edicts created at Vatican II. Only now are these errors becoming resolved through the thoughtful leadership of Pope Benedict XVI in dialog with that group as well as many groups who represent a dialog of dissent with Catholic Doctrine and a schism of beliefs that rent unity into many shreds and present to the world a cause for scandal.

I know you would like to blame this all on me and do so if it makes you feel better about your position as this blame does not affect me when I know the final outcome of the unification of Rites and it’s intent as has been well explained by the Pope.

I will not be deceived by any to believe that the presentation of any Rite of Worship is more Divine in the eyes of the Holy See which certain Catholic would like us to believe.

Pope Benedict XVI is absolutely correct in his presentation of Truth.

What you are not aware of so I will educate you. I worked hand in hand here in Minnesota to resolve the error of the SSPX group leadership also hand in hand with Father Altier from Saint Agnes to resolve certain misinterpretations of the Latin or Trinitarian Rites as "more worshipful" and also watched the disciplinary action taken by the Diocese in this case. My best friend Father James Perkle is most acutely aware of the Diocesan action as he worked also with Father Altier when he was transferred and the reasons for it.

Often misinterpretations of edicts result in the rent of unity which is the reason for the clarifications from Pope Benedict XVI to state there is no reason to doubt the dignity of the current Rite in it's divergence of form, still remaining only one Rite of Worship which allows cohesion through respect of Holiness and Authority in the Priesthood and the Apostleship of the Saints.

Post edited 1:22 am – November 1, 2009 by saintstephen
Post edited 10:16 am – November 1, 2009 by saintstephen
Post edited 5:46 pm – November 1, 2009 by saintstephen
Post edited 5:50 pm – November 1, 2009 by saintstephen
Post edited 6:02 pm – November 1, 2009 by saintstephen

Michael said: Simple dishonesty is another “blame” that may be laid at your feet. Oh, and teaching error… and calumny… and misrepresentation… and faulty logic.

In Christ,
Michael

Michael, Try not to forget that in the Catholic Condom thread you warned me that identifying the sin of another Catholic is unwarranted, you are breaking your own rules. Oh and don’t forget you also warned me about making identification of false beliefs in that same thread was unwarranted so again breaking your own rules. Perhaps you suffer from forgetfulness or simply are so enamored of your own opinions that you assume that only you carry a license in your wallet to break all rules of reasonable dialog.

Not to worry, I have made a prayer for your forgiveness in the same vein as Christ when he said, “Father, forgive him, for he know not what he writes”.

What Pope Benedict XVI is saying is that there is nothing wrong with “not letting go” or “refusing to let go” of the Latin Mass and he is also saying that there is something wrong with Latin Mass goers to presume their worship “more worshipful” than any other and also there is nothing wrong with celebrating the Liturgy in any language other than Latin. This coincides with the statement of our dear friend in faith Pristinus,[Warren Jewel] who said something to the effect, “I will attend the Mass in Swahili” and still get the Blessed Sacrament in it’s fullness and meaning.

This letter from Pope Benedict XVI effects the reality of what is simply stated by Pristinus in that it coincides with the Doctrine on Transubstantiation whereby even a microscopic particle of the Body or a minute droplet of the Blood contains the whole of Christ both man and God in entirely and in perpetuity and requires our most ardent Adoration. Hence the ordained Priest [supposing Father Kunte Kinte of Swahili-land] confects the Body and Blood as effectively and completely in a remote jungle Church which has the appearance of a grass hut; as the High Mass in Latin at the Vatican.

Pope Benedict XVI has thoughtfully reconciled the tensions of contention by declaring the most worshipful Rite of the Mass to be what is in fact celebrated throughout the world by all believers according to that which is most meaningful to each faithful within the guidelines of Church Doctrine.

For Pope Benedict XVI, it was this “attitude of defection” which drove the SSPX community into defection from the Magistrate and the Pope wants no more of that. His resolution is to equalize all into one Rite that is worshipful and at the same time meaningful to all with no one holding an “attitude” of a Rite that is supremely more worshipful. It is through elitism that all commonality in the faith is lost which is what prompted Vatican II and many of the changes to reflect God calling all to Him, even those in error, hence the methodical updating of the Doctrine on Ecumenism which has been identified as one of the primary directives of the Church in ongoing missionary labor which Pope Benedict XVI is in fact making as much headway as Pope John Paul II if not more.

Michael said:

In the first place, you identified her as being in sin when the evidence was that there could be reasonable doubt on the reader’s part that this was the case.

Michael, So you prove by your own admission that you make your own personal applications of discernment of sin arbitrarily and accuse some but not others of guilt. All this proves your own hypocrisy in error in judgment and set yourself up as arbitrary judge of humanity, accusing some and glossing over others faults as you please. Not unusual for you as you have prov-en this very phenomenon repeatedly since I have began dialog with you.