Post edited 12:54 am – October 5, 2009 by saintstephen
Post edited 12:58 am – October 5, 2009 by saintstephen
Post edited 1:03 am – October 5, 2009 by saintstephen
Post edited 1:07 am – October 5, 2009 by saintstephen
Post edited 1:19 am – October 5, 2009 by saintstephen
Post edited 1:35 am – October 5, 2009 by saintstephen

Michael said:

Saintstephen:

So you cannot point to Church teaching to counter my position. I’ve already demonstrated that the probability of saving someone is non-zero through reference to citation material.

Too bad you are closing things down, because the discussion was somewhat enlightening.

In Christ,
Michael

Michael, Debating the cause for Martyrdom of a “grenade Savior” makes as much sense as you and I debating our cause for Canonization for Sainthood. Only the Vatican through thorough investigation of a case by case study can determine and declare a Martyr or a Saint.

I would not mind going on and on with you so long as it is clearly understood that neither of us can win at this debate as there is no Canon which provides an absolute declaration. The Canon is only a guide for the process and not the actual process itself of Canonization. The College of Cardinals and the Pope decide finally.

If you simply want to sharpen your wits in a match with me in this or any other topic, I am fine with that as I enjoy sharpening my wit against the stone of your brain, just for the fun of it.

The Canon 1397 I already referred to describes the excommunication of homicidal Catholics which so far is the most on target Canon which reflects my point of view.

To pinpoint the definition of Martyrdom that we disagree on, we need to look closely at the words “give” and “take”. Psychologically the mind of the Martyr must reflect an attitude of “giving” ones life for Christ. In the grenade Savior psychology, I see a person’s attitude reflecting as “taking” ones life which disqualifies him from the Vatican definition of Martyr. The Vatican definition clearly identifies “giving” ones life for Christ, not “taking” ones life for Christ. We need to come to some agreement about this definition of “give” and “take” in order to resolve the misguided Martyrdom supposition which is so inherent in the Islam definition of Martyrdom which is essentially “taking” ones life for Allah, not “giving” ones life.

The subtle difference between give and take can easily be magnified in viewing the way Judas died and the way Christ died. Judas took a rope and hung himself thus dying. Christ had to wait until the Romans and Jews were ready to crucify Him so that he could "give" his life. If Christ were similar in attitude to the "grenade Savior" he could have dispensed with the Romans and Jews and the crucifixion and simply killed himself by taking a rope and hanging himself alongside Judas, then he could have identified with Judas in his betrayal as both "took" their own lives. Do you see what I mean? Jesus said Judas would betray Christ and in so doing, took his own life whereas Jesus gave his life over to the Jews and Romans for crucifixion. Do you see the subtle difference in attitude toward method of death between Jesus and Judas?

If you want to press on let me know in your next post and I will keep digging myself into a deeper hole with you to see whose head disappears first.

Take a look at this journal entry from the AMA:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/c…..90/10/1317

Spontaneous Extrusion of Hand Grenade Fragments From the Face 60 Years After Injury

To the Editor: Retained grenade fragments may slowly migrate in the body over time and thus may not become symptomatic for many years. For instance, Wittich1 reported a case of a grenade fragment that migrated from the leg 35 years after injury. Similarly, retained shrapnel may migrate several decades after the original injury and has been reported to cause late effects such as biliary obstruction,2 bowel perforation,3 and brain abscess.4 These reports describe cases in which the fragment is embedded in a relatively large space within the body. Herein I report a case of fragment extrusion from the face 60 years after the original injury.

And here is another from the FHA:

http://www.find-health-article…..gments.htm

The late effect of grenade fragments.

Full Abstract

Following the explosion of a grenade or shell, the victim may be peppered with literally hundreds of pieces of metal. Troublesome fragments which perforate a major viscus may be removed but others are often left behind, as it is felt (usually correctly) that these fragments will cause no harm. We describe a case in which a grenade fragment received 16 years previously pierced the large bowel. A psoas abscess developed which was located by ultrasound. Pus was aspirated under ultrasound control and the lesion was successfully treated by antibiotics.

And here is a military instruction manual on how to use a fragmentary grenade:

http://www.inetres.com/gp/mili…..e/use.html

Fragmentation Grenades

The fragmentation grenade produces a large amount of small high-velocity fragments, which can penetrate plasterboard partitions and are lethal at short ranges (15 to 20 meters). Fragments lose their velocity quickly and are less effective beyond 25 meters. The fragments from a fragmentation grenade cannot penetrate a single layer of sandbags, a cinder block, or a brick building, but they can perforate wood frame and tin buildings if exploded close to their walls.

Post edited 12:13 pm – October 5, 2009 by saintstephen
Post edited 12:21 pm – October 5, 2009 by saintstephen
Post edited 12:35 pm – October 5, 2009 by saintstephen
Post edited 12:45 pm – October 5, 2009 by saintstephen

Michael said:

I enjoy, too, the process of argument and discovery. I’m happy to say that my brain is stone because it is founded on that Rock which is Peter and solidly grounded in the Church. If it can be of use sharpening anyone in his faith – all the better.

Michael, Nothing makes my heart grow fonder that one who realizes the truth of faith and you certainly have it in the analogy of the “mind of stone” which is firmly believing in the “rock” of Peter and Christ.

We are called to this debate most certainly and always and everywhere as Christ explained to the Apostles to build one another up in the faith by exhortations and supplications. You and I are most ardently engaged in that calling in this thread.

What I know for certain of suicide is that it is borne from despair. All returning military currently are on suicide watch. From my own experience, men who use weaponry to kill anyone psychologically are prone to despair. Even Catholic men who kill are prone to despair and that despair can lead one to take his own life, not give it as a gift from God in the cause of Christ. My brother in law was in Korea and shot himself in the head at Christmas in full view of his wife and children who now suffer tremendously because of my brother in laws despair.

Judas went to the rope from despair not faith.

Martyrdom is borne from faith which is why Christ was a Martyr and so all the Apostles except John who all gave their life through an act of faith not despair.

In deciding any case of Martyrdom it needs discovery of a psychology between the two: faith or despair and what motivated the act of dying then it must be determined also if the reason was selfish or fully given for the cause of Christ.

I will agree that falling on a grenade could meet the conditions only from the view that faith and cause of Christ motivated that act although because of my intensive training in artillary [I was awarded EXPERT in munitions firing in combat training] that explosives rarely explode in such a restricted manner as to subject the material to containment by the human body. The only explosive I have seen that could be contained in that manner was when James Bond fired a pen fired pellet into Fatima Blush on his thrilling spy adventure “Never say never”. The pellet lodged in her breast then exploded with a delay of about 15 seconds while James sweated out the reaction and Fatima was aiming a pistol at his “jewels”. Fortunately for James, Fatima exploded leaving only her shoes smoking there on the floor.

I spend about 8 weeks exploding fragmentary and other grenades in training and also spent two years setting up perimeter defenses wired to grenades and mortars which are specifically designed to “spray” kill over an expanded radius. I still have no means of comprehending the containment of grenade fragments by covering a grenade with the human body, to me it is incomprehensible as the force of fragments would at close range penetrate the flesh and go beyond into other matter being human also. The effect of containment would be excessively “iffy” whereas the desire to save a human life would rather compel one to force anther person to the ground to allow escape for both from the radiant fragments which would project upward moreso than downward. Lying flat on the ground has saved my life more often than not as it is difficult for any projectile to follow a path on the ground whereas standing full up will provide a target.

My combat experience in removing the human target by seeking cover on ground or “better” below ground is the best way to save a life including myself and my buddy for the cause of Christ and I was a practicing Catholic my entire tour and beyond into technical advisement as a civilian support for military defense in Vietnam.

From my point of view, the body is not what needs to be saved anyway, it is the soul that needs to be converted to Christ and so my primary means of Martyrdom was done in conversion of faith of my buddies. If you read Saint Isadore, he set the standard for definition of Martyrdom as “white” and “red”.

White Martyrdom is enduring persecution in faith while red Martyrdom is offering the human body as sacrifice for cause of Christ, while suicide is always done through despair and mostly depression due to lack of faith.

I would like to draw Moses and Saint Paul into this debate as material witness as Moses killed an Egyptian then was immediately manhunted and went into hiding only to be forgiven for the mistake by God Himself and made Prophet and Leader of Israel to the promised land. Saint Paul killed and imprisoned Christians only to be forgiven by God Himself and made Apostle for the faith and Saint Paul readily admitted he was the least of the Apostles for that very reason of killing those who believe.

“Live” witnesses make the best judgments regarding suicide and Martyrdom as they know the difference psychologically between despair and faith. Despair can lead to faith when God intervenes to raise one up from the depths of despair to faith and so in the “grenade Savior” where is the depth of despair and where is the light of faith? Psychologically this is a very deep question and it is determined only in a split second with very little reason to believe the motivation was in fact faith from my point of view. There are simply better ways to prevent fragmentation of metal from hitting an intended target.

Were the “grenade Savior” to be awarded the title of Martyr from the Vatican, I would like to ask the Martyr why did he not seek a more protective body posture to save both lives like Moses and Saint Paul who both assumed a more protective body posture to become leaders in faith for the cause of Christ.

Considering the case of Judas who in despair hung himself, Christ said, “It were better for that man had he never been borne”. Pope Benedict XVI in a Vatican edict stated that, “We do not know the final fate of Judas in Judgment and need not assume to know”.

Also as a former CIA operative I had chance to meet many Detectives from Homicide who have said to me: “Homicide Detectives make the best witnesses as they are alive to testify for the dead victim to apprehend the killer and convict him with material evidence”.

When the Vatican convenes to determine the cause for Canonization of a Martyr, I hope they would also employ the services of the Pink Panther [Inspector Clouseau] of France as he is most acutely aware of the material evidence which points directly to the motive for murder in either the killer or the victim even though he is a bumbling,accident prone, hilarious Agent of France who solved the case every time through some mysterious intervention of fate and went on to promotion in the Medal of Honor in times square outside the Eiffel Tower.

Your turn, Michael the Rock of Faith?

Post edited 5:46 pm – October 5, 2009 by saintstephen
Post edited 6:05 pm – October 5, 2009 by saintstephen
Post edited 6:21 pm – October 5, 2009 by saintstephen

Michael said:

Do you still maintain that a spouse’s permission is a requirement?

In Christ,
Michael

Michael, Due to the Sacramental requirement of unity and open to procration in Marriage the necessity of spousal permission is an absolute in the case of wartime acts of perceived heroism. The Catechism teaching is such that in marriage your body belongs to your spouse and so would not be able to make such indiscriminate decisions regarding the use of the body any more than a spouse can deliver his body for any other purpose in marriage.

Example is that if a husband chooses not to engage and futher refuses to engage in procreative acts with the wife, she can divorce and petition the Tribunal for Anullment based on that refusal. In the same vein a husband who refuses to obtain the express permission of his wife to use his body outside the marriage to perform a perceived act of heroism especially when the outcome is “iffy’ this could easily be construed as cause for anullment of the marriage when the husband blatantly disregards the desire of his wife.

Should they both agree, then the intent still must be weighed in Spiritual discernment with the Church to ascertain that this act would be in Communion with Christ and the Holy See.

To blatantly and obstinately make a spontaneous decision to use the body in the “grenade Savior” case without pre-approval would amount to a violation of the Canon prohibiting acts of homicide.

This is why I wrote that a Priest has a greater requirement to Martyrdom should the occasion fall upon him as he is not impeded by the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony although the “grenade Savior” probability would not likely occur to a military Priest as I do not believe they are required to a primary MOS according to Military Codes of Combat. Simply put Military Priests are authorized to save souls in the military although they are not required to combat whereas single or married men in military have the primary requirement to combat in addition to a secondary mode of service in their usual form of technical or other labors.

To expect a military Priest to achieve the “grenade Savior” effect would be contrary to his mission which is the Salvation of Souls and so in dying the Priest would be nullifying his primary directive to save souls by staying alive.

Obviously anyone can save more souls alive rather than dead unless the specific act and method of Martyrdom results in a notorious state of Sanctity which would emblazon this image in the minds at a rate of worldwide attention, such as Father Kolbe which is renowned worldwide in attention thus gaining the possible salvation of souls through Martyrdom.

Even should you and I for the fun of it disregard any religious intention of a Catholic in war related military service, any serviceman is only required to satisfy the Military Code in service. To obtain a Purple Heart the serviceman must perform an act of valor above and beyond what is expected of him normally in service to the Military Code and so becoming a “grenade Savior” even according to Military Tribunal findings probably would not be considered an extraordinary act of valor in wartime firefight.

In fact the military may view the act as simply a method for avoiding any further engagement in combat, an “easy way out” so to speak and not an act of extraordinary valor. So this military decision should should set a precedent for the possibility of any religious discernment of Martyrdom as military records of combat related deaths are for the most part classified according to war strategy in field command so those specific circumstances of the engagement may not be available for public or Church viewing depending on the Pentagon authorizations obtained.

Ordinary military service is required and so falling on a grenade usually is not considered a military strategy to win the war as it results in a casualty and loss in numbers which require replacements “at a cost to the military budget”.

In my service combat training I was only taught two lessons: 1. how to kill through hand to hand engagement and weaponry 2. how to stay alive and survive without rations

At no time did my drill instructors even mention dying and in fact my DI told me, "Dying is not an option, boy"! I was only 18 years old and for the record as this forum is monitored by many at no time during military service did I kill anyone and further requested permission to combat only hand to hand and to relieved of the weaponry and my Commander relieved me of weaponry. I used my crucifix as a weapon instead and came back alive.

Tarheel said:

The thread of this discussion reminds me of another on CE from a few years back. Except that time I was in Michael shoes.

I’m staying out of this one.

Tarheel, It's ok not to have an opinion sometimes and choose only to ponder or not to ponder some of the most seriously disturbing aspects of life.

For those who have never killed, I can tell anyone this: from my point of view according to my war experience, killing human beings is only done at a high psychological price. The more one kills human beings, the more difficult it becomes to kill and that is why some psycho's kill themselves after they kill many others, it is on the news in cases where someone goes postal.

There is a point at which the weight of killing someone else is greater than killing ones self and so suicide becomes the most viable option. Falling on a grenade could be the only way out of the gravity of the situation for men who have killed a great deal, it promises relief from the tremendous burden of guilt which accumulates over the course of time.

I have witnessed this event in war as a soldier in the US Army in the Republic of Vietnam.

I keep thinking about the comment about the soldier jumping on grenade. The question of him having permission form his spouse to do so may be stretching that a bi. Is that person a martyr? The dictionary provides this definition. " a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion" So base don that I can't see the act of jumping on a grenade making that person a martyr. But what I do see is a selfless act of someone doing all he can to protect the lives of others.

And yes saintstephen I have been in combat. I served in Vietnam too. I lost good friends there also. And even now some 30 years later I still think why wasn't it me that died. And I get the impression that you may be saying that those men and women that sacrificed their lives so that their fellow soldiers could live did so in vain. Sorry I don't see it that way. And my two very good friends that died were catholics. It was them that introduced me to the Church. Do I think they are martyrs? No. Do I miss them ? Yes.

Tarheel:

Welcome.

To say,

The dictionary provides this definition. "a person who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce a religion"

is true, in so far as it goes. But the Church also defined a Martyr for Charity which is one who aids another in the service of the Faith. (I haven't found an official definition, but the above seems to contain the common points). St. Maximillian Kolbe is one, Bl. Damien of Molokai is being considered for the title.

Thank you for your service.

In Christ,
Michael

Post edited 2:06 pm – October 6, 2009 by saintstephen
Post edited 2:13 pm – October 6, 2009 by saintstephen
Post edited 2:20 pm – October 6, 2009 by saintstephen
Post edited 3:08 pm – October 6, 2009 by saintstephen

Tarheel said:

saintstephen your story is almost too unbelievable. And because you admitted to going AWOL and then being allowed to serve strikes me as strange. In my 20 years of military service I never witnessed anyone being AWOL and not serving time in the brig. But that is at the commander’s discretion.

I never said I agreed with the war effort in Vietnam. I just served.

And your replies about military service remind me more and more of someone else that used to be on here. Just can’t remember the name right now.

Tarheel, All recounts of miraculous intervention by the Divine Redeemer are hard to believe. Mine is a true witness of the events as they occurred in real time. Christ has saved me more than once along with many supplications to the Blessed Mother Mary.

I have gone more than AWOL, I have actually disappeared right before their eyes like a ghost in the night.

This is the effect also of the elite training provided by the 5th Special Forces “Airborne Rangers” although it is more-so the effect of the Pink Panther which was my code name in special operations and as operative of the CIA.

In military service I became the famous Inspector Clouseau to go underground and uncover the mischievous mischief carrying on in the war against Vietnamese freedoms and American playtime past-times.

Many who were captured by my “accidental discovery” of the crime and sent back to the USA defamed called me with a great deal of disgust, “The Tunnel Rat” as I bit off the head of many snakes while underground and “under the covers” of the dark of night. I was fully protected by my brown Carmelite scapular and frequent clandestine visits to the Confessional and The Holy Eucharist while my bare skin was smeared with camouflage wearing only green underpants and thongs on my feet and appearing and disappearing with deft skill in maneuvers while I prayed always for protection.

Michael said:

Tarheel:

And your replies about military service remind me more and more of someone else that used to be on here

Yes, you’re right.

In Christ,
Michael

Michael, If I remind you of anyone else I would hope that it should be Christ. Your mind is suppose to be on Christ always.

Tarheel said:

Thanks Michael

Thanks Tarheel for remembering me when you come into God's Kingdom.