Post edited 11:11 am – November 8, 2009 by saintstephen

richmaur said:

I am troubled by the large number of Catholics, thirty million according to the Pew Forum on Religious and Public Life, who no longer consider themselves practicing Catholics In terms of salvation what is the church’s position on those who have fallen away and just do not believe in Catholicism anymore? Is the only road to salvation the return of these people to the church confessing their sins and being absolved?

Dear Rich, Father John Hardon was commissioned, even begged by Pope John Paul II to promote Adoration of Christ. As he is holds a Doctorate in Theology, he explains fallen away Catholic in this way: That denial of Christ in the Eucharist is preceded by denial of Christ as the Word made Flesh including a denial of the Ordination of the Priesthood.

In the 16th Century there were over 200 errors introduced by Martin Luther, Calvin and others who all made these same denials of Christ as Eucharist, Word made Flesh and Personae Christi in the Priest.

According to Pope Pius X the current denial of Christ in those three Catholic manifestations of Christ are from the created errors of secularism and modernism.

The Council of Trent defined 9 denials of Christ which prompted them to correct, which I will list three:

1. If anyone says that in the Mass, a true and proper Sacrifice is not offered to God or that the sacrificial offering consists merely in the fact that Christ is given to us to eat, let him be anathema.

2. If anyone says that by the words, "Do this in commemoration of me"Christ did not make the apostles priests or that He did not command that they and other priests should offer His Body and Blood, let him be anathema.

3. If anyone says that the Sacrifice of the Mass is merely an offering of prayers and of thanksgiving or that it is a simple memorial of the Sacrifice offered on the Cross and not propitiatory or that it benefits only those who communicate and the Mass should not be offered for the living and the dead for sins, punishment, satisfaction and other necessities, let him be anathema.

Let him be anathema means literally "let him be damned".

Pope Pius XII said, "Christ built on Calvary a purifying and saving reservoir which He filled with the Blood He poured forth. But if men do not immerse themselves in it waves and do not therefore cleanse themselves of the stains of their sins, they certainly cannot be saved."

So, Rich your concern is well founded in faith that those who fall away betray Christ according to the Church.

Father Hardon suggests a way a concerned Catholic may bring them back to faith which is these:

1.Receive Christ daily at Mass

2.Volunteer to assist at Mass

3.Volunteer to spend time in Adoration of Christ

4.Confess your sins in the Sacrament of Reconciliation frequently

In this way, through the Divine Intercession of Christ Himself that the lost soul may be returned to the faith.

Father John also suggests this prayer:

LORD JESUS CHRIST, WE BELIEVE YOU ARE GOD WHO BECAME MAN FOR OUR SALVATION. BECAUSE WE BELIEVE YOUR ARE GOD INCARNATE, WE BELIEVE WHAT YOU SAID AT THE LAST SUPPER: "THIS IS MY BODY…..THIS IS MY BLOOD." WITH SAINT PETER WE SAY "TO WHOM ELSE SHALL WE GO? WHOM ELSE CAN WE BELIEVE IF WE DO NOT BELIEVE IN YOU, OUR GOD WHO BECAME MAN? YOU HAVE THE WORDS OF ETERNAL LIFE" [John 6:69-70]. AMEN

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noelfitz said:

SS,

many thanks for your post.

I wonder is transubstantiation the big issue.

Noel, Not only transubstantiation but also the Incarnation and also the Ordination of the Priesthood are all being denied by not only those fallen away but also those in error by separation from the Church in every community of professed Christianity that refuses to unite itself with the Catholic faith.

It is true that many are being drawn from various communities to communion with the Catholic faith as only their error of belief prevents one from enjoining unity although it is Christ Himself through the Spirit who draws them to Himself from out of error into the Truth. Nor is the fallen away able to fault the Catholic Church nor any of it’s councils for creating a radical Doctrine which drives away the faithful. That is a scandalous belief that the Church is at fault and one and the same scandal that Martin Luther foisted upon many ignorant and still does to this day.

Christ was accused of creating a radical Doctrine when He said, “Whoever eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood will have Eternal Life”.Those who fall away betray Christ as is witnessed by Christ Himself who said, “I know those who will betray me”

Of course Noel there are current radical theologians who would make this Scripture a figurative interpretation [by an act of their own bloated pride and inflated ego], “I know those who will betray me” although the Catholic Church says this statement from Christ is to be taken literally and furthermore describing by Christ even those currently who will betray Him in this day and age, as Christ, who is the all knowing all seeing God could see the future of the Church into this century and well past it even until the end of time. That is why Christ said, “When I return, will I find faith on earth”.

The people who heard Christ speaking like this were astonished, even scandalized. They objected three times and finally, some of the people, including many of His own disciples, left Him saying, “This is intolerable language! Who can believe it!” [John 6:62

As usual those in betrayal will fault anyone other than themselves and those Catholic who betray the Catholic faith will always fault the Catholic Church which is of course the method of the evil one who accuses all others before God.

Of course as you know well Noel this is a formulation of my own opinion. You may read the current full formulation of the concerns of ecumenism at the following site:http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/card-kasper-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20041111_kasper-ecumenism_en.html

I will post here in part a summary of what the Vatican is currently undertaking in drawing the separated brethren back into the fold:

In this sense the ecumenical movement is a charismatic phenomenon and “an undertaking of the Holy Spirit”. The church has not only an institutional but also a charismatic side, as the Council demonstrated (LG, 4, 7, 12, 49; Apostolicam actuositatem 3; AG, 4, 29). So ecumenism is a new beginning, set in motion by the Holy Spirit and led by him (UR, 1, 4). The Holy Spirit, as it were the soul of the church (LG, 7), grants unity as well as the multiplicity of gifts and services (LG, 7; UR, 2). Thus the Council was able to say that spiritual ecumenism is the heart of ecumenism. Spiritual ecumenism means inner conversion, a change of heart, the sanctification of personal life, love, self-denial, humility, patience, but also renewal and reform of the church; and not least, prayer is the heart of the ecumenical movement (UR, 5-8; UUS, 15 ff., 21-27).

The moral of the story is Noel, that anyone’s faith can slip right out of their hands when they allow their own reason to overpower their solidarity with the Teaching Authority of the Catholic Church. This is in effect what happens to “fallen away Catholic”. They leave for their own reasons instead of relying on faith to guide them to the Sacraments instituted by Christ and equally important, the Catholic Church instituted by Christ.

It is for this reason alone that we must all pray for the grace of "final perseverance" in the faith so that we also do not fall from grace into error.

SS,
the concept of transubstantiation is a way to gain some insight into what the Eucharist means. It is based on Aristotle's hylomorphic theory, which does not help most of us, as few of us can grasp what Aristotle meant by substance. Change now is understood in terms of atoms and molecules.

When people fall away, I presume they do it for many different reasons and theological difficulties with the Eucharist may or may not be a reason. Some move to Protestantism, where the incarnation is believed.

Remember the Church is a holy Church, made up of unholy people and we can give scandal and drive people from the Church.

I agree with you that faith can slip away. However one's own conscience is the ultimate criterion and one must be true to one's conscience. Through carelessness, laziness, or any reason one can lose the faith, but it is not correct for any of us to judge another person.

Rich,
I will reply to you later, as I want to think more about your post.

SS,
many thanks for your long post to me. I appreciate it.

Of course I agree with what you say.

But with regards to transubstantiation; it is a technical term and depends of Aristotle's meaning of substance. I prefer to believe that in Communion the bread and wine becomes the body and blood of Christ and leave it at that.

You talk about the sacrament of reconciliation. Unfortunately this has almost disappeared in Ireland at present. Ireland has the highest Mass attendance in Europe (Poland and Malta are next), yet in some parishes about 1% attend Mass. In most parishes there are few people under 60 at Mass.

We can only leave those fallen away to God's mercy, pray for them and show them Christian charity.

Today at Mass on the feast commemorating the building of the Basilica of St John Lateran, the priest prayed that all would find the Church a warm welcoming place, where they are encouraged and helped in the faith. Have Catholics ever shown a lack of charity to those who are wobbly in the faith?

noelfitz said:
many thanks for your long post to me. I appreciate it. Unfortunately this has almost disappeared in Ireland at present. Ireland has the highest Mass attendance in Europe (Poland and Malta are next), yet in some parishes about 1% attend Mass. In most parishes there are few people under 60 at Mass.

We can only leave those fallen away to God’s mercy, pray for them and show them Christian charity. Have Catholics ever shown a lack of charity to those who are wobbly in the faith?

Noel, Sorry I had to use alot of words to make a point. This one will be brief, We should never be distressed about the numbers in church for one reason: Christ was never wrong, nor will he ever be wrong in anything he ever said and Christ said this:

"Do to others whatever you would have them do to you. This is the law and the prophets.

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? The Gospels* Matthew Chapter 7

What Christ is saying is that there are "few" who find the narrow gate, the constricted road.

The narrow gate is the Catholic Church, the constricted road is what is expected of faithful Catholic in obedience to the Teaching Authority of the Church.

Many leave because they refuse to accept Church Teaching and many more leave because they do not want to submit to "obedience".

Those you see in Mass and receiving the Sacraments are the "obedient".

Post edited 11:14 am – November 10, 2009 by saintstephen

noelfitz said:

SS
You wrote:
“We should never be distressed about the numbers in church “.

I think we should. Those who leave the Church may be putting their eternal salvation in doubt. We should do all we can to help those who were part of the People of God and not encourage them to leave the Body of Christ.

In a post to CE I was asked to leave. I am not sure whether the poster meant I should leave the Church or CE.

Noel, I refer to the word “distressed” for two good reasons.

One is that anxiety is a result of distress and we constantly pray in the Liturgy of the Mass that God, “release us from all anxiety as we wait in joy for the coming of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”. That prayer is intended to inspire “faith” as were we to remain “distressed” this would increase our anxiety and reduce our strength of faith.

One of the reasons for fallen away Catholic is anxiety and distress of the state of the world and the feeling that God is not helping us in our distress. It is important for us always to trust in God’s Divine Providence and His plan for Salvation of mankind. We always and everywhere pray for God’s will to be done, not ours.

As the Holy Scriptures tell us, “No one can come to the Father except through the Son and no one can come to the Son unless the Father wills it”.

Christ knows the heart of everyone and I see in my own experience that there are those not only God nor Christ nor anyone faithful Catholic would even want in Church as they are so deceitful and disruptive that all they would do with their presence in Mass is disturb the faithful.

Pope Benedict XVI felt so strongly about this same subject that he wrote specifically to say, “I would rather see [fewer] most faithful Catholic in the Church than [more] less faithful Catholic”. The reason for this statement from the Pope is prompted by the fact that the less faithful Catholic only give scandal to the faith and create a bad image to the world and the brethren of what it means to be Catholic.

I have realized this tragedy frequently in my own life where those who profess the Catholic faith do not live it, in fact are defiant of all that comprises the Catholic faith and so cause others great anxiety in their life of faults and errors and gives the enemy reason to accuse the Catholic Church even more of failure.

You and I do not decide nor should we, who belongs to the Catholic faith as Christ himself said, “I know my sheep and they know the sound of my voice”. “They will be my sheep and I will be their shepherd”. Christ made many references to the “thieves who enter through the gate to steal” which shows how wrong it is to be an unfaithful Catholic pretending to be Catholic. It is far worse to be an unfaithful Catholic than it is to be a non-believer in the first place and the condemnation is far more severe for those who when having knowledge of the Truth, forsake it. This is the betrayal that Christ is referring to when he said, “I know those who will betray me”.

If there are person’s who we think are missing from the fold, we should ask the Shepherd why they are not there as the Shepherd keeps only an unblemished flock of sheep and herds out the goats. It is presumptuous for you and I to determine in our own minds who belongs to Christ’s sheepfold.

This is why I advise that distress is not good for us and it detracts from our joy and peace in the faith. Distress can also leave us vulnerable to temptation and sin. A strong and faithful heart will triumph over all temptations and Christ through the Spirit will draw all men to Himself at the proper time.

This is the essence of what you and I know to be called, “faith”, which means literally, “trusting in Christ’s will and Divine Providence in all matters” of concern for all time.

Regarding anyone post to you to leave, I want you to know that this is not my desire as you have been my friend in the faith for many years and have shown me more than once the path to peace. I will suppose that it is some sort of hoax as there does not seem to be any “substance” to the request. I do not see any “substance”. I do know that certain people will demand the removal of another when they feel like they are losing control in a dialog. Hibernicus and many others on the irishcatholicsproboards forum are guilty of that most of the time. When they do not “win” the dialog or feel like they are losing control of the dialog, they demand the removal of anyone they consider, their “opponent” which of course is improper treatment of the rules of dialog which makes attempt to degrade the integrity of the person in dialog with in order to gain some advantage in the reason for dialog.

I have witnessed many who use this tactic as it belongs to the competitive form of debate which disposes of respectful and honorable attitudes toward each other and is decidedly anti-Catholic in origin.

This is why our hymnal calls us to sing with all joy of heart:

We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord
We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord
And we pray that all unity may one day be restored
And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love
They will know we are Christians by our love

We will work with each other, we will work side by side
We will work with each other, we will work side by side
And we'll guard each one's dignity and save each one's pride
And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love
They will know we are Christians by our love

By our love, by our love

And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love
They will know we are Christians by our love

We will walk with each other, we will walk hand in hand
We will walk with each other, we will walk hand in hand
And together we'll spread the news that God is in our land
And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love
They will know we are Christians by our love

By our love, by our love

And they'll know we are Christians by our love, by our love
They will know we are Christians by our love

Love is patient, love is kind
Never boasts, not full of pride
Always hopes, always trusts
The evidence of Christ in us

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noelfitz said:

From time to time I write about things our priest says at Mass, as they are always thought provoking and at times provocative.

Today he said that he was asked to offer Mass for a lapsed Catholic. He said he preferred to call them “collapsed Catholics”, who are at times “lazy slobs” who wont go to Mass.

Interesting view!

Noel, My posts are long because even though I am responding to you, we are on a public Internet which can be searched by anyone in the world and I want my reflections of faith to be understood by even those who know nothing of Catholic values. I agree with your Priest in the aspect of culpability. We all are to be held responsible for our actions and what we allow to shape our own lives in or out of the faith and so “lazy slobs” coincides with one of the seven deadly sins of “sloth”.

The Seven Deadly Sins, also known as the Capital Vices or Cardinal Sins, is a classification of the most objectionable vices which has been used since early Christian times to educate and instruct followers concerning (immoral) fallen man’s tendency to sin. It consists of “Greed”, “Gluttony”, “Wrath”, “Envy”, “Sloth”, “Pride”, and “Lust”.

Of course in the aspect of deception, if one knows the Truth and clings to it, he cannot be deceived, however if one does not fully know the Truth, one can be deceived into sin and many fall into sin through deception rather than as accomplice to sin with the full knowledge of Truth.

This is a subtle difference I know well which is why we pray in the Our Father, “Lead us not into temptation”.

P.S. I responded to a PM written to me by Michael G. today because a certain member of the irishcatholicproboard whom we both agree has a tendancy to harsh and rash judgment [of others] was found to be in error by Michael G. himself and is at this moment correcting him of the error of slander. I thought you may be interested in knowing that.