Why are you asking?

In Christ,
Michael

Zenobius:

Not to be too snide, but I think that the only “approved” condom would have a hole at both ends.

In Christ,
Michael

I guess the withdrawal (before full ejaculation) method would also be licit for the same reasons. Gotta love the Catholic Church!

Zenobius said:

Anyone ever heard of a Vatican approved condom?

Zenobius, I must admit that a Catholic Priest in my parish advised a parishioner that use of a condom would be acceptable providing the tip of the condom were cut off to allow semen to reach into the vagina in the act of intercourse between husband and wife.

The woman asking the question was astounded at his answer as she was not asking for that, rather she wanted to stop the semen from entering which of course is immediately contradicting Church teaching on unity and procreation. In preparation for the Sacrament of Marriage it is clearly expressed that any couple intending to marry must be ready and willing to accept those fundamental two teachings of unity and procreation unless the couple are advanced in age to the years beyond normal conception although with God anything is possible it is not expected that a couple marrying in their 80’s would conceive a child and so the Church preparation is more relaxed for the aged although the concepts of unity and procreation are always at the heart of marriage.

The only accepted and taught and approved method of regulated conception in the Catholic Church is the method of abstinence on cycles of greatest fertility found in the woman by using heat sensitive test equipment to define the days in the cycle where intercourse sexually could be avoided to “skip over” the possibility of pregnancy which in no means relieves a couple from the responsibility to procreation in the Catholic sense as the couple are expected to resume relations on all other days as they are able.

The approved method according to Church Doctrine is called NFP and I have copied some of the understanding here for you to view. You can contact your Diocese for information on enrolling in the training and methods:

An Introduction to Natural Family Planning

Natural Family Planning (NFP) is not contraception. NFP gives a married couple a way to space out childbirths and limit the total number of children. But it does not give the couple complete control over procreation. Even when the couple prayerfully decides to limit their family size, or to wait before having another child, NFP is open to the possibility of life and to the will of God. NFP is used in a moral and praiseworthy manner when the couple, though making responsible decisions about family size, are still willing to accept an unplanned child from God’s Providence.

Zenobius said:

Wait a second. I thought the requirement of the heart was that the couple “…be open to the transmission of life.”blockquote>

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Zenobius, Apparantly you misunderstood me. Think big not small. Cut a very large opening in the end. The effort you make in this matter is very magnanimous in understanding. In order to be open you really do need to be open as well as your spouse. Any effort to infringe upon the natural process of creation will cause you to lose your charity. Charity in marriage is as important as chastity and the chaste will naturally give to their spouse in charity.

Charitable giving is the essence of the Catholic faith and according to Scriptures this can forgive a multitude of sin. If you really want to be forgiven it is necessary to forgive others and it takes charity to forgive others.

Like at Christmas time you give gifts freely and in marriage every day needs to be like Christmas in giving to your spouse. So don’t be a scrooge with your talents nor your love. Give with an open and pure heart and you will enjoy marriage as much as a Priest enjoys his ordination to the Ministry of the Sacraments.

First of all Michael, I don’t believe the Catholic Church is wrong in anything when it comes to teachings on faith and morals. Second, SaintStephen, the priest in your example agrees with Michael (before he jumped to the other side of the fence that is) and was saying the same thing as Michael said at the beginning of this thread. Michael’s definition that a Catholic condom is one in which there is at least one other opening seems valid, licit and morally acceptable. We can debate size of the hole if you would like but the question begs: how many sperm are required to enter the vagina to make the act “…open to the transmission of life?” Last time I reviewed high school biology it only requires one sperm and one egg. Thus Michael’s condom definition ,and the priest in question, recommendation seems to hold water.

For the record, we are obviously not talking about “contraception” in the strictest sense as any serious couple who are intent on reducing the probability of conception down to near absolute zero would never use these proposed methods. No…they would likely use “Billings” or “Symptom-thermal” methods that are far more reliable. No. These would be used by couples who are truly open to the transmission of life but are interested in limiting the number of athletes swimming in the pool or maybe need to take a sperm sample to the fertility clinic to verify motility.

Zenobius:

I haven’t “jumped the fence.” I made the off-the-cuff remark about “a hole at both ends.” You hypothesized about a compromise anywhere along the material, not I.

In Christ,
Michael

Post edited 7:51 am - October 3, 2009 by Warren Jewell

Zenobius, what Onan did reflected and responded to what was in his heart. Sin and virtue unto obedience have in common that ‘ya gotta wanna’, and then act upon what it is that is your heart’s real desire.

Zenobius did ask a question, that seems to possibly be at the core of his posts:
[H]ow many sperm are required to enter the vagina to make the act “…open to the transmission of life?”

This would seem to be ‘angels on the head of a pin’ question, since no couple could ever have any idea how many sperm cells, and where along the linear site of the condom, could be held back or, shall we say, permitted to escape. Just such ‘counting’ consideration puts the condom beyond the same ken as NFP, which takes advantage of a purely natural set of conditions. No condom, however compromised, is ‘natural’.

But, of Zenobius, I would have to ask the serious basis for his query, for it seems a rather shallow question without a serious issue involved. Where in his posts are contemplation of chastity and holiness? Even the ‘contraception’ of a natural course to avoid family for a period of time can be misused, of course, say, where the couple takes on effective celibacy simply to avoid any family. Yet, even celibacy among couples who choose to live like religious as part of their personal rigorous devotion to God finds representatives among the saints. However, the natural guidance of NFP can also lead to a closeness between God and His unified marital couple that no unnatural device could accommodate. In NFP, there is an all-out dependency upon God to cooperate, in His will. No unnatural device however compromised recognizes dependency on God, but dependency on the device.

Zenobius, set aside the ‘shallow question’ and state your ‘serious issue’, as has been suggested already in different words. Then, maybe, we have something to ‘chat’ about.

Post edited 9:05 pm - October 3, 2009 by saintstephen
Post edited 9:12 pm - October 3, 2009 by saintstephen
Post edited 5:44 am - October 4, 2009 by saintstephen

Zenobius said:

Let me quote myself. “How many sperm are required to enter the vagina to make the act “, ”…open to the transmission of life”? I think this is an interesting question and I thank you for helping me pose it. So that is my question. How many?

I wish I had a profound statement to make but I likely don’t. If I were to make a statement it would be…nope, I got nothing.

Zenobius, I understand your confusion. Obviously the act of procreation is not an exact and completely precisely executed function. There is always inherent in exchanging bodily fluids some that does not go where we want it to go. Even in kissing there is no precise method for kissing and so kisses land where they will. It is not good to be overly concerned with being precise when procreating as you will fret yourself beyond comfort.

Try to relax and be comfortable and remember that no one should cry over spilled milk and the same is true in procreation, you are going to spill some which is a natural part of the process. Simply do your best to place everything where it should go and let God do the rest for you as he created you and her and also placed in us the desire for procreation.

Like an artist who paints an artwork the colors must splash together into what becomes in the final look a beautiful work of art and this is the best analogy I can imagine procreation to be. Even the greatest artists were placing colors here and there to blend in the final picture and so it is with procreation. We need to try our best each time to make this event the most satisfying for each other and not to worry when it does not always work out that way and something is spilled somewhat so long as we try to engage completely in love with the full intention to be open to life and living and most of all to unite as one.

Many men and women suffer from scrupulosity and “always being right” and “always being the best” and these thoughts will hinder us when we try. Always remember there are more opportunities to do even better and you will find yourself looking forward to the next event with joy.

The biblical story about spilling applies to willful, intentional spilling without regard to any loving intention nor to your spouses enjoyment or to life in general. The story was never intended to make you so anxious about the act as to worry that if you accidentally spilled a portion that you will be condemned.

Try your best to unite in the act and place everything where it belongs and you will do fine. May God Bless you through Christ in your desire for perfection which is always pleasing to God and to your dearly beloved spouse..

The joy of procreating with God in mind and with your spouse in mind and the possible creation of a child in mind is beyond all imagination and comprehension, it is truly done in the image and likeness of God the Creator with whom we pro-Create new life.

All these thoughts will come to you supernaturally in a natural way if you will allow God to enter into your mind when you love your spouse. God knows what you are trying to accomplish and he will give to you all the grace and skill you need to accomplish his will once you make your commitment to Him and keep your vows faithfully to your spouse in fidelity wherever you go.

If you really want to make a biblical case concerning procreation read the entire book of Tobit from the Old Testament where Tobit’s son Tobias is led by the angel Raphael to meet his new bride and is given advice while enroute to her home on how to prepare for the marriage and specifically how to pray before procreation so that the event is a blessed one. I think you will enjoy the biblical story of Tobias.

Now that’s a revealing question!

I suppose you could say that I am married but only in the first degree. I am enjoying marriage “of the heart” for now. I plan on taking the next step and making it legally binding soon. Hopefully in time I hope to achieve the level of a sacramental marriage but I have to overcome a few obstacles before I can attempt that degree of marriage.

Why do you ask?