CE Forum: Should the Church Proclaim a Fifth Marian Doctrine?

Mary statueIt’s time for a “Solemnity of the Assumption”-themed Catholic Exchange Forum!

You know the guidelines (which in fact apply to all comments at CE):

-keep it as short and streamlined as possible

-keep it on the subject

-no vulgarity

-be respectful of other people’s human dignity

The question for this week is:

The Catholic Church has four official Marian Doctrines (Mother of God, Ever Virgin, Immaculate Conception, and the Assumption). It has been suggested that a fifth one (Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate) has always been implicit in Catholic belief and ought to be officially proclaimed. Agree? Disagree? Why or why not?

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  • BillinJax

    This would be a bold step and would no doubt invite more of evil’s torment yet I would proudly proclaim….

    Was she not the chosen one of the Most High?
    Was she not the faithful servant and bride of the Father?
    The New Eve of Salvation!
    Was she not the very first Christian?
    Was it not Mary who took control of His mission in the temple in spite of his own desire?
    Did Christ not first reveal His heavenly power at her trusting motherly request?
    Did she alone not silently suffer along with Christ in all of his trials?
    Was she not bone of bone and flesh of flesh with the Redeemer and Lord of Lords?

  • Amy

    Yes, of course. we need the Fifth Dogma. While Mary is the mediatrix of all graces between Christ and the world, she is a reminder as well of our role of mediating the grace of Christ to others by our words, our actions and our faith. By acknowledging her role in salvation, we begin to understand ours as well.

  • Annie Heber

    From personal experience, I say that she brings our prayers and petitions to her son and to God the father as any good mother does with her children. Although children can approach their earthly fathers with a request, it is often easier for them to bring their requests to their mothers first. Mothers usually have a tender and soft side which children find easier to approach. I beleive that God listens to us even if we don’t ask for Mary’s intercession but that because he gave her to us as our mother, he wants us to ask her for guideance. She is after the immaculate conception of God the father, the mother of God the Son, and the spouse of God the Holy Spirit. As queen of heaven and our mother, she is our advocate. We pray in the Hail Mary: ‘Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us now and at the hour of our death”- we ask for her intercession, mediation during all of our life and at the time of our death. She is co- redemptrix because without her ‘yes’ God would have been denied the vessel for his incarnation.

  • Tom

    Before Mary was there was Grace.

  • Nelson Medina

    “The Declaration of Czestochowa correctly observes that
    while each of these titles can be given a content in conformity with the deposit of the
    faith, nevertheless such “titles, as proposed, are ambiguous, as they can be
    understood in very different ways”. This is a serious observation, for, in a
    doctrinal pronouncement of such weight as a dogmatic definition, it is necessary that the
    terms should not lend themselves to ambiguous interpretations and that they be understood
    in a substantially univocal way. For example, the title of Mediatrix has been
    understood throughout the centuries and is presently understood in notably different ways.
    It is enough to check recent books on Mariology – from 1987 to the present some 20 manuals
    have been published – to note that the mediation of the Blessed Virgin Mary is treated by
    theologians in contrasting ways – in terms of its doctrinal evaluation, the determination
    of the area in which it is exercised and in comparison with the mediation of Christ and
    the Holy Spirit. Prescinding from any other consideration, in the case of the mediation of
    Mary, with respect to many of its aspects one finds oneself before a quaestio
    disputata, far from that substantial theological unanimity which, in relation to
    every doctrinal question, is the necessary prelude for proceeding to a dogmatic
    definition.”

    Read more at http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/ormaria2.htm

  • Costanoan

    The title Co-Redemptrix is particularly open to misinterpretation, “co-” being most often interpreted as “joint-”, rather than “cooperating”, in English usage, and I believe in other languages as well. If the underlying concept can be better expressed by a less confusing term, it needs to be.

  • Lilla Marie

    Yes, we need it! May we as Church infallibly proclaim to all in Heaven and on earth that Mary is our Mother! That we receive this great gift Jesus has given us; and that we invite her to take her rightful role in our lives individually and as a whole. I believe many graces will flow to us when this Dogma is proclaimed. Graces so needed.

  • James Stagg

    No.

  • Mike, New Jersey

    Adam and Eve were co-conspirators in the first sin. Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and Eve. It was Mary who drew Jesus into His public life and was with Him in all His major issues, His first disciple. It was through Adam that Eve came into being, it was through Mary that Jesus came into His human being. It’s fitting to be acknowledged as His greatest helper.
    From a mortal perspective, this declaration of Co-Redemptorix will cause further alienation from non Catholics, but being a theological matter, it is not possible to predict the benefits. Give Her the honor She is due and let God’s will be done.

  • Art

    yes, it is needed to declare the truth.

  • Howard

    Yes!

  • Kathleen

    Yes. Our Holy Father Francis may indeed do it! Perhaps the Holy Spirit chose him primarily for this purpose. It is way past time. Initially, some in the Church and outside will rail against it, but in time they will come to accept. If Heaven wants this, then it should be done. Pope Francis soon will consecrate to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
    The 5th Marian Dogma may follow. I pray that it will.

  • GregCz

    Agree.

  • mike

    Read the “Mystical City of God” by venerable Mary of Agreda and you will understand the answer must be YES!

  • iggram

    I fully agree. We have
    to look at Mary’s role in salvation history.
    Jesus came through her and her ‘yes’ made His humanity possible thus making
    possible our redemption. Mary’s love for
    Jesus her son far surpasses any love that existed and as His mother her pain
    far surpasses anything anyone ever experienced.
    I think it is safe to say that their
    hearts were locked together throughout all their lives but especially at Jesus’
    passion and death so that Mary in some mysterious way suffered along with
    Him. Mary was and is the suffering
    mother and deserves the title of Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate because of
    her total cooperation in the Father’s plan for our redemption. Mary embraced the sufferings of her Son and
    presented them to the Father thus participating in our redemption.

    No doubt many will have a problem with this. But be that as it may God the Father knows how to work through all
    the negativity and bring forth abundant fruit.

  • Brett from Maryland

    No. We don’t need any more dogmas. (We are having trouble enough gaining assent to the ones we have.) The ones we have now are sufficient to save our souls. And if Jesus wanted to tell us that His mother could help save us during His Incarnation on earth, I’m sure that He would have.

  • Laura Y.

    Jesus Christ alone is Savior, Redeemer. We honor and venerate the Blessed Mother for her unique and necessary role in salvation. Her fiat should be our own as she is the example par excellence of Christian discipleship. To call her Co-Redemptrix is placing her on par with Jesus Christ. This is wrong and deflects our attention from the 2nd Person of the Trinity. Mary never draws attention to herself. We look to her words: “Do whatever He tells you.” Catholics believe that Mary was redeemed and protected from original sin by Jesus at the point of her conception. Without this, she would not have been the ark of the New Covenant. She, too is a creature subject to the mercy of the Creator. Quite frankly, this suggested doctrine opens the door to worship of the self. If we place a human being on par with the Word Made Flesh, we can then start seeing humanity itself as equal to God. This is a New Age belief which is running rampant throughout our culture and is ripe with self-centeredness. Again, Mary runs in direct contrast to that….she points to Him, not to herself. We should all have our eyes on the Crucified and Risen Christ. Isn’t He enough?

  • Anne

    Yes! Look at the vision of Saint John Bosco, often entitled “The Two Pillars”
    Once our Holy Father secured the Ship (the RCC) between the large pillar on which the Eucharist was and the smaller pillar on which Our Blessed Mother (under the title “Mary, helper of Christians”) was there was finally peace and calm in the world.
    The difference in the size of the pillars yet the need for both symbolize the 5th dogma well.
    Yes, it would send many of our separated Protestant brethren into a dither at first, but it would also cause many to try & understand why Catholics are so devoted to Mary. That intrigue could lead to the conversion of many.

  • Henry lawrence

    Those who have been inspired by the Holy Spirit of God, (Mary’s spouse) have already been given the grace to believe and proclaim beyond any doubt that Mary is Co-Redemptrix with Christ. This belief has been ratified by Mary herself in her revealed biography to Sr. Mary Jesus of Agreda, entitled The Mystical City of God.

  • charles g

    No Laura,
    Co- Redemtrix does not make Mary equal to Christ, the same way a co-pilot is not equal to the pilot. Mary “complements” Christ in his act of redemption by her fiat. That’s what the “co” means. This has nothing to do with new age stuff.

  • charles G

    Absolutely! It’s part of God’s plan for this age. Many of the modern approved apparitions allude to it.

  • ML

    In May, of this year I visited my mother and father’s birth place, seeking my physical roots, also finding my spiritual roots. The love my ancestors had of our Catholic faith. I also made a one day pilgrimage to ‘de Vrouwe van alle Volkeren” “The Lady of All Nations”. Mary appeared to a Dutch woman beginning on March 25th 1945 and has asked for the dogma ‘Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate.’ This would be the crowning of Mary. She wants all peoples to know her as their mother.

    http://www.de-vrouwe.info
    so it would be a YES

  • Lorraine M> Baker

    Yes, most definitely. It should be proclaimed as doctrine.

  • Lisa in Missouri

    He did tell us that she is Blessed because she, first and foremost, hears the Word of God (Christ, the Eternal Covenant) and KEEPS it (the Covenant). When Jesus said pick up your cross and follow Me, He knew Mary already had, when she held HIm in her arms at Bethlehem … all the way to Calvary. We are all called to be co-redeemers, cross bearers, but she is PAR EXCELLENCE. It was Her Heart, her Flesh and Blood, beating One with His, not just as she carried Him in utero, but all the way to the Centurion’s Sword as proclaimed by the Jewish Prophet Simeon! Do not take the Name of the Lord (the name of Christian) in vain. “Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed* we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.” We ARE our brothers’ keeper: by a Cross!

  • BeckitaMaria

    It’s time… for all the sound reasons expressed thus far and more. Dr. Mark Miravalle, a fine theologian and Mariologist, has written clearly and profusely about the fifth Marian dogma. http://www.markmiravalle.com
    I was blessed to be a guardian for an image of The Lady of All Nations, a Marian revelation fully approved by the Church in which Blessed Mother explains floodgates of grace will pour forth upon the earth when the dogma is proclaimed.
    Words of wisdom… Blessed Pope John Paul II: “Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of Her Son.” Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta: “The papal definition of Mary as Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate will bring great graces to the Church.”
    We can each do our part in promoting the declaration. One way is to sign the petition which already has millions of signatures: http://www.fifthmariandogma.com Another way is to pray the prayer given by our Mother: “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Father, send now Your Spirit over the earth. Let the Holy Spirit live in the hearts of all nations, that they may be preserved from degeneration, disaster and war. May the Lady of All Nations, the Blessed Virgin Mary, be our Advocate.”
    Blessed be God forever! Ave Maria eternally! FIAT.

  • Greyghosttoo

    Yes, without question.

  • Tomb

    Agree! This 5th Marian Dogma personalizes Mary’s relationship with us on our journey to heaven. Sanctity is a family effort in this communion of saints with Mary as prime example. Church is not just “me and God”.

  • Lorraine M> Baker

    Yes, I most definitely think this should become a dogma.

  • Tomb

    … in
    filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions. -Col.1:24

  • reeni

    More than ever we need to turn to Our Holy Mother for She, The Blessed One, is The Ark who brought Jesus to mankind and will in turn bring mankind back to Jesus. When we honor Mary in Her role of mankind’s redemption, we always give glory to God! So lets give great glory to God and honor Mary in Her role in our salvation.

  • donn canzano

    at the presentation simeon said to Mary, and your heart will be pierced, so that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. I think this is strong support that Mary has a role beyond being Jesus’ mom. she is very involved in the salvation of us all, or at least to many. I think this dogma would emphasize Mary’s role as bringing us to Jesus, especially with so many modern apparitions in the world. certainly these apparitions have collectively brought many sinners back to God, including me.

  • Harry Flynn

    Not according to the Vatican did Our Lady appear there!

  • Harry Flynn

    It was not approved by the Vatican and the local Bishop did not have the authority to supersede a Vatican judgment on the matter.

  • Deacon Nicholas

    The implicit terms of Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate all fall within the understanding that the Theotokos is revered and venerated yet remains the most perfect of human beings. The Church therefore uses the term hyperdulia for her alone. She is not worshipped but venerated above all others. The Marian doctrines should remain intact. Otherwise there would be an implied sense of latria (worship) that applies to God alone. Mary, like us, is totally dependent upon Jesus, yet she shows us “the way” to Him. Whereas Jesus is “the Way”. The term “advocate” is commonly associated in reference to the Holy Spirit, Advocate, Consoler, Counselor. Mary has the unique title as Theotokos because she is not only the mother of Christ, she is the Mother of God and is our spiritual mother.

  • Harry Flynn

    In the past, dogma has been defined in response to some heresy.
    If we keep with tradition, what heresy is rampant today that requires this doctrine as dogma?

  • Mar

    Yes! And the sooner the better, because many blessings will be poured upon us when it happens.
    Praised be Jesus and Mary!

  • haubrock

    I have no problem with the Church declaring a fifth Marian dogma but I do question the timing. I do not think it would be wise to declare this dogma now.

    As a Church we have lost a couple of generations by not catechizing the lay members concerning the simple things like the real presence and the teachings on life. Many Catholics do not agree with these basics and many more do not understand them and are unable to defend them or proclaim them. 1 Peter 3:15 “Always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence.” I am not that confident that we would be able to articulate this dogma let alone defend it.

    I humbly suggest that our shepherds focus on educating the lay from the ambo in the basics. Let us graduate from high school before we are asked to defend our masters thesis.

    Don’t get me wrong, if the Church proclaims it then I am ALL IN because I trust the Holy Spirit is guiding the Catholic Church and I am obedient to her.

  • DonH

    I agree with Costanoan; too easy to misinterpret, and drives a deeper wedge between us and our fellow Christians. Mary, wanting what her son wants, desires unity of Christians, and would not approve of a divisive doctrine like that, I think. Besides, even among Catholics we have disagreements about the term and what it means. Does it mean she consented to be the mother of God? Does it mean more? Does it mean she is in some way almost equal to her Son? Let us have no more dogmas until all Christians are united.

  • magdalene

    Would love to see this promulgated as dogma! Many graces would be released by it and it is already doctrine. Our Lady as Advocate and Mediatrix was even in Lumen Gentium. Many of our Popes and Saints have spoken or written about Mary’s coredemptive offering.

  • MaryB

    Yes, ASAP

  • Marty Dancy

    Man has free will and protestants as a group will not really unite with us anyway until Christ comes the second time. Only He can really unite people because He is God. i do not believe that the Catholic church should hold back on anything She wants to do just because of what other people think who don’t believe in what we do anyway. Personally, I think it is better for people to have the freedom to choose a church of their own rather than be sucked into a one world religion which is what the commies want. There will never be real christian unity until Christ Himself does it at the end times or at His own timelog. I don’t believe in waiting for things but move on with what we think is right. Even if churches do unite, others will break away and there would be more splits in other ways. Those who die and go to heaven are truly united and there are no longer any divisions because they see God face to face. Our earthly journey is imperfect and humans will always cling to what they have always believed so we should leave that alone and let God take care of it in HIs own way.

  • Marty Dancy

    There are many heresies that are being ignored by many. One is indifferentism which means that one religion is a good as another and people can just go anywhere they want and it doesn’t matter. This became prevalent more than ever after the council. Also, the heresy of (can’t remember the word) you can mix religions together, copy their ceremonies, dumb down Catholic tradition and water down the faith to please any old person of any old religion like the Catholic church is just another good ol’ coffee clatch and that Jesus is just another good guru who is not better than any other guru running around India. This dogma will help people to realize that the Catholic church is unique and may quell some of these heresies that no one does anything about. Pius XII did not worry about what protestants would think when he proclaimed the dogma of the Assumption so we should not worry about what people think now. I believe that the Catholic church is the true original church of Christ and the only true unity subsists within the Catholic church, not in a watered down one world socialistic liberal group that would take a police state to hold it together.

  • Kathy Fitz

    Mary was the first tabernacle to hold Jesus, the only Begotten Son of God. She is our Mother and advocate and as the Co-Redemptrix she surely is the Mediatrix of all graces.
    We need to proclaim our Catholic belief now from the roof tops..if we did not have Mary we would not have Jesus.

  • Marty Dancy

    It is funny that we did not have any trouble before vatican II with dogmas. Also, Jesus speaks through His church by the Holy Spirit and the dogmas help to enhance our faith as we move along in history. Instead of placating dissenters, we should move along with being Catholic and quit worrying about what non Catholics think. I came over to Catholicism in 1963 and was happy to accept all the beliefs without question.

  • Richard Moorton

    I venerate and love Mary, and can accept her as the mediatrix of all grace, through the will of God. But she can no more redeem anybody than I can. If she is declared co-Redemptrix by the Catholic Church then I will have to consider looking for a more faithful branch of Christianity. I love the Church, but I love God more.

  • Citizen Christian

    For the Church to proclaim a new doctrine that the Blessed Virgin Mary is “co-redemptrix” would result in a new serious heresy — to do so would be tantamount to deifying Mary and of course she, herself, would obviously not agree with such a heretical doctrine.

    In this respect, Saint Peter affirms: “Jesus is the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:11-12).

    There is no problem, however, with the portion of this suggested new doctrine referring to Mary as “Mediatrix (to her Son) and Advocate”.

  • Gallibus

    Yes, I agree. It is the Lord’s will as stated in several modern Messages. Therefore, it will happen.

  • Laura Y.

    There are many sound points being made and I understand that the suggesdte fifth Marian doctrine has been implicit in Catholic belief as Theotokos (Mother of God). If it is the Will of the Father, it will be done and there will then be affirmation of it in some way (as in Lourdes when the Lady identified herself to Bernadette as “The Immaculate Conception”). What I do not comprehend is the suggested “need” for this doctrine to be declared. We Catholics can get a bit caught up in these issues while neglecting time with the Word (Scripture), acts of mercy and evangelization. This is a danger for all of us. I mean no disrespect to the Blessed Mother in my argument. I love and revere her very much; she is unique among all creation. She is mankind’s solitary boast, someone once said. Thanks be to God for that. Maybe I just don’t know enough, but what greater honor is there than to be the Mother of God which the Church has proclaimed?

  • Gallibus

    The Vatican can’t be everywhere! Faith is faith! Who can be absolutely sure of another’s experience unless they shared the experience? That is why faith is faith! The Vatican wasn’t there when God spoke to Moses either.

  • Gallibus

    This is apparently not the way the Lord sees it according to many messages to various people over time and continents. ‘Co- ‘ implies ‘with’ and there is no doubt that Our Lady was ‘with’ our Saviour all the way. It is quite simple to accept that Our Lady was ‘with’ our Saviour all the way – once the meaning is understood and this in no way flies in the face of any Church teaching ever – on the contrary, in fact.

  • bluesuede

    “When asked in an interview in 2000 whether the Church would go
    along with the desire to solemnly define Mary as Co-redemptrix, (the
    then) Cardinal Ratzinger responded that,

    the formula “Co-redemptrix” departs to too great an extent from the
    language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to
    misunderstandings…Everything comes from Him [Christ], as their Latter
    to the Ephesians and the Letter to the Colossians, in particular, tell
    us; Mary, too, is everything she is through Him. The word
    “Co-redemptrix” would obscure this origin. A correct intention being
    expressed in the wrong way.”

    Although I love the Blessed Virgin Mary, I have never been comfortable with the term co-redemptrix. Before jumping into a 5th dogma, I agree with what the then Cardinal Ratzinger said, ‘..A correct intention being expressed in the wrong way.” It really needs to be looked at more deeply, while still respecting the desire of the faithful to glorify the Mother of God with another title, but it causes us to think more seriously about the exact term— co-redemptrix.
    If it is the Will of God, it will be done. After all, it is predicted that in these end times, the Immaculate Heart of Mary will triumph.

  • Harry Flynn

    Be careful what your faith it.
    Divine and Catholic Faith teaches the Holy See carries the mandate from Christ Himself to “strengthen the brethren.”
    Rome has spoken on the Amsterdam case and the local Bishop’s decree of 2002 is null-and-void.

  • Harry Flynn

    it = is

  • Harry Flynn

    And how will defining Mary’s Mediation relate to and remedy this situation?

  • Gallibus

    No! Jesus wants us to approach Him through His Mother. He has said in recent years that the miracle of Cana was given as an eternal sign that we should approach Him through His Mother. Jesus is our Advocate to the Father; we approach Jesus through His Mother. We cannot, of course, deify Mary – that would be heresy – but we can, and profitably should, ask her to intercede for us to Her Son since this is what pleases Him.

  • Gallibus

    Choose to be faithful to Jesus; research His will in the many modern Messages before giving in to you own spirit in your presumption, rather than to His Holy Spirit. The Lord has said that just as in His time on earth when He was a stumbling stone for many, so in our day many will stumble over the Holy Spirit. The Church will carry out His wishes in obedience since Jesus is Head of His Church. If you do a little research, you will find that you are off-track in this matter. Co-redemptrix means that she stood with Christ during His redemptive acts. That is history. God bless.

  • bluesuede

    You’re right Harry. These “apparitions” were only approved by a local bishop and his credibility was later called into question, because of the lack of any real spiritual validity. I have found that the “Lady of all nations” had some direct error to them. Ida Peerlman (the alleged seer), told us that Mary said she no longer wanted to be known as “Mary”, but only as the lady of all nations!! That is just wrong. Mary will always be called Mary. Lady of all nations is a very superficial and nebulus title. It almost amounts to priestess. Ida Peerlman demanded that there be a new 5th dogma of co-redemptrix, so I have my doubts that it is even necessary.

  • bluesuede

    Catholics who are well informed will agree with you, but many are not and it could be a misleading term.

  • bluesuede

    Referring back to what Cardinal Ratzinger said, “The word
    “Co-redemptrix” would obscure this origin. A correct
    intention being
    expressed in the wrong way.”

  • Gallibus

    That is like saying when offered a gourmet meal, ‘No, thank you. I am able to survive on bread and water’. Sniff!

  • bluesuede

    You mention an important point, “Even among Catholics we have disagreements about the term and what it means…”

    The beautiful titles Mary has now, are very simple and easy to understand. I too, find it may stir up disagreements between Catholics, whereas, Blessed Virgin, Immaculate Heart, Mother of God, Queen of Heaven, etc., are all inspiring and glorifying, but co-redemptrix and mediatrix are not simple or clear.

  • Gallibus

    And some saints have been excommunicated……. Yes, one has to be careful and patient. And Christians have died for their faith long before it was written down. Hmmmmm!

  • Roger B.

    Yes, there should be a 5th Marian Dogma!
    But it should titled Mary, Mother of All Mankind!
    This dogma would help fulfill proper Reparation due to the Immaculate Heart of Mary (Fatima)
    for the 30 year (at least) time period of The Triumph of the IHM!

  • neilshog

    Don’t think it’s a good idea, but It would be nice to teach more on how Mary, besides giving birth to Our Savior, co-operated in our redemption. First and foremost She said yes to God but little is emphasized about the suffering She endured for our sake. Many approved mystics have gone as far as to say She felt the pains of Our Lord as He went through His Passion. Thank you Jesus for the beautiful gift of Your holy Mother!

  • Mary Jean Spinellli

    Blessed Mother has been chosen by God the Father to be the distributor of

    ALL GRACES. Who are we to say Mary is not to be HONORED with this Title.

    We have a Great Intercessor Our Heavenly Mother whom God will not say No to Her request coming from Her Children. Our prayers are presented by a Mother so Pure that God can not say No to His Mother. What a Great Gift to Mankind. She takes our imperfect prayers and through Her intercession presence them perfectly and most pure to God the Father. He can not say No to so prefect a prayer. AMEN

    LET’S PRAY FOR THIS MARIAN DOCTRINE.

    OUR LADY MEDIATRIX OF ALL GRACES

    MARY JEAN SPINELLI. WEST CHESTER,PA

  • pete salveinini

    Well then, CLUE THEM IN !

  • pete salveinini

    As to MERITING REDEMPTION FOR US IN JUSTICE, CHRIST IS THE SOLE MEDIATOR; BUT as to CHRIST HAVING HIS MOTHER SHARING IN THAT ROLE UNIVERSALLY, THAT IS A GRACE FREELY GIVEN HER AS QUEEN MOTHER OF THE KINGDOM.

  • FatimaToday

    Not only should the 5th Dogma be proclaimed, it will be because it is the will of God.

  • Vivian Ward

    This answer is as simple as it gets: “Co” means WITH, as in “co-pilot, co-worker, co-incidence, co-insurance, co-operate, co-existence, co-pay, etc. It does not mean that she is a Redeemer; there is only one Redeemer. When St. Gabriel announced to her that she would be the mother of the Messiah, her response was “Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Be it done unto me according to thy word.” She thereby Co-operated as a partner in God’s plan for the redemption of mankind;and her body and the body of the Son of God became untied inseparably for 9 months. As Mediatrix, she mediates between man and Jesus for our intentions, and as Advocate, she is the advocate of advocates. Remember at Cana, Jesus could not “refuse” her. She is the daughter of the Father, the mother of the Son and the spouse of the Holy Spirit. She has influence with the Holy Spirit unlike any other creature.

  • Harry Flynn

    You are not thinking like a Catholic but an apostate!

  • pete salveinini

    This is why St (to be declared soon) John Paul II did not go ahead with the definition. But with this Pope all best are off. He is full of surprises, many of them heavenly ones. And world events are likely to quicken this up quite a bit.
    from public prophecies through private revelations we know that there will be divine intervention coming soon in the great conflict between Good and evil which include a world wide warning, a great Miracle and, depending on who mankind responds a Chastisement SO AS TO CLEANS THE WORLD AND REMOVE THE DEMONS IN ORDER TO HAVE AN ERA OF PEACE. There will be one Shepherd and one Flock, and all remaining peoples will be good hearted and effectively brought into the Church. St Pio said that 3/4th of the human race would be gone in this process, which agrees with Revelation. And he should, of all people, have gotten it right.

  • Harry Flynn

    A member of the CDF published remarks to the effect of openly challenging that Bishop. Such is good enough for me to believe that Bishop was in error.

  • pete salveinini

    As Pope Francis preaches, the Holy Spirit DOES NEW THINGS. What you fail to grasp is that Our Lord is WANTING HIS MOTHER TO BE THE KEY AGENT IN BRINGING ABOUT THIS ERA OF PEACE AFTER THE GREAT DEFECTION FROM FAITH, HERESY AND SCHISM ALONG WITH WARS AND SAVAGERY, ERROR AND DARKNESS THAT GETS MORE TANGIBLE EACH WEEK.

  • steve

    It is time for the proclamation of this 5th Marian Dogma. The first 4 dogmas proclaimed who Mary was in the order of salvation and the 5th dogma will define her role in salvation history ; both now and in the past. It will be a source of abundant graces to be released upon the earth. It will take courage to do so and will obviously be misinterpreted by Protestants and Catholics who are not theologically literate. Pray that this will be done soon. Both Jesus and Mary desire it. It’s time has come!!

  • john

    YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! She earned that title then and keeps on earning that title as Jesus sends Her all over the world in our time to bring all of His Children to him today from this up side down world we live in. She appearing live and there is no admission.

    john

  • Marty Dancy

    And what branch would that be? I have visited all major branches and have not found one that has all the components that the Catholic church has. The orthodox come close but they are very nationalistic and it is hard to fit in if you don’t fit the ethnic group. I need the sacraments and I will stick to the Catholic church no matter whether the church defines the marian dogma or not.

  • Servus Fidelis

    Agree.

  • Marty Dancy

    The Catholic church is unique and not a carbon copy of the other groups outside the church. I have stated what I think above that there are too many people who push syncretism and indifferentism on Catholics thinking that they will make unity happen it won’t happen. People want what they want and they won’t give in. Having this doctrine, if the church goes ahead and proclaims it, will show non Catholics that we are going to be special and not back down to every Tom, Dick and Harry’s wishes. We are not a social club but the one true church and the only unity on this earthly plain that I accept is Roman Catholic and not a mix of anything goes. Each christian group has its own identity and traditions and the people have a right to their own cultures and traditions. Only God can truly unite churches together because people will listen to God but not to us or to other churches unless they want to. In heaven, there will be no need for sacraments or churches, etc. There will be no division but pure unity without human errors. I believe in letting this go and let God take care of this ecumenism thing His own way.

  • OFWobserver

    the ancient jewish tradition of “gebirah”, also “queen mother” is well known sine the time of david. refer to http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/documents/mary%20the%20queen%20mother%20of%20the%20new%20davidic%20kingdom.htm

  • Marc

    It will definitely be proclaimed one day, when the time is most right for the Church and the world to gain the most benefit from it, no doubt about that. It is the only Marian dogma left to be declared, and then the Immaculate Heart of Mary will be venerated side-by-side with the Sacred Heart of Jesus, as He Himself has desired and declared. I hope I will be alive to see that glorious day!

  • Joseph

    Vatican II document, Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, refers to Mary as “mediatrix” (paragraph # 62). I has been already proclaimed !

  • Joseph

    Vatican II document, Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, refers to Mary as “mediatrix” and “advocate” (paragraph # 62). I has been already proclaimed !

  • Prostrate In Awe

    Maybe you should try the Western Rite Orthodox Church (ROCOR or Antiochian). Orthodoxy is more than close, it is authentic. It has preserved the faith handed down by our Fathers undefiled. It doesn’t make sense that Our Lord would deny 2000 years of Christians such a wonderful gift of this doctrine if it were true and good and pleasing to Him. Moreover, if Mary is Sinless and she is the Immaculate Conception, her son would not have needed to die for her. These doctrines presume to declare that Mary was not in need of salvation when the Bible clearly states “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.”

  • BeckitaMaria
  • aabuna

    I believe that Truth should be proclaimed boldly. If the Truth is that Mary is Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate, then the Church has the obligation to say so. We should not be afraid of Truth; God will surely protect and reward all who have the courage to speak it.

  • Milton

    As far as I am aware, the 1974 Vatican decision simply confirmed “the judgement already expressed by the competent ecclesiastical authority” which would have been the original 1956 negative decision by the Bishop of the Diocese of Haarlem.

    But in 2002 the Bishop of the Diocese of Haarlem declared that Our Lady of All Nations was of supernatural origin.

    Perhaps it is time for the Vatican to clarify their postition on the matter, seeing as their most recent statement on the apparition dates to 1974.

  • BeckitaMaria

    Questioning a bishop’s credibility is a very serious charge without providing documentation. Study and discernment of an apparition by the local ordinary is exactly how the Church works. The Church followed her own norms http://www.doctrinafidei.va/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19780225_norme-apparizioni_en.html to reach the point of declaring the apparitions to be authentic and cautiously waited 45 years before doing so. (For the official document see the EWTN link in my reply to Mr. Flynn.)

    There are often problems which arise when studying the authenticity of private revelation. Think of St. Faustina and the faulty translations of her diary which caused the Church to condemn this private revelation for many years before discerning its authenticity.

    Dr. Richard Russell provides a fine discussion of some of the difficulties and urges us to listen to the Lady of All Nations. http://www.motherofallpeoples.com/2013/02/the-lady-of-all-nations-why-we-should-listen
    Now, if one chooses not to believe in private revelation we must respect that option as clearly stated in the CCC. At the same, equal respect is deserving to those who, with the approval of the Church, choose to believe in fully approved apparitions. Indeed, the private revelations of the Lady of All Nations, despite those who vehemently oppose the reality, has been fully approved by the Church. The Holy See, as is usual practice, takes very seriously declarations made by the local ordinary. In fact, the CDF, while Cardinal Ratzinger was Prefect of this congregation, readily accepted the decree of Bishop Jozef Punt in 2002. No further investigation ensued on the part of the Holy See.

  • Harry Flynn

    I think you missed the point: the Vatican made its own ruling and Bishop Punt did not have the authority to overrule it.

    http://catholiclane.com/olan-approved/

  • Harry Flynn

    I think this article explains well the matter:

    http://catholiclane.com/olan-approved/

  • Harry Flynn

    Can you provide documentation that Ratzinger accepted this decree?
    If that was the case, why did Bishop Scicluna made a public statement indicative of the contrary?

  • Francis

    There is only one who saves us and that is Jesus. His mother is to be honoured because she is his mother. Trying to put Mary on the same level as her Son who is divine is simply wrong. Francis

  • Marty Dancy

    Sounds like you ought to try it. I have now stopped looking around. I did all that years ago and am now settled in a nice fssp parish which is what I need. It is part of the church but is allowed to have its own rite, the tridentine. As long as it keeps what it has, I will stay with it. Oh, by the way, when you say that all have sinned, that includes me and you but not Our Lady. Nuff now. Bye!

  • jenny

    What does it mean “Ever Virgin” ? I thought that in Mathew gospel 1:25, it says “He (Joseph) did not consummate their marriage until after she (Mary) gave birth to Jesus.”

  • Peter J. Dawson
  • Milton

    Harry,

    That article you directed me to raises more questions than it answers. It cites an essay by Msgr. Charles Scicluna who argues that once a decision of the CDF is rendered on an alleged private revelation, the decision is of “undisputed hierarchical authority,” meaning a lower authority cannot overturn it. The article says Scicluna provides a footnote citing the “Our Lady of All Nations” as just such a case. The article quotes Scicluna as saying:

    “The Servant of God, Paul VI, on 5 April, 1974 approved the decision of the Congregation to publish the negative judgment “Constat de non supernaturalitate” taken 27 March, 1974. The Notification of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith bears the date of 25 May, 1974 and has been newly proposed in “Documents of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith” published in 2006 (Documents 22, p. 90).”

    Now, Harry, the only 1974 Vatican document that I can find regarding Our Lady of All Nations is found here (http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19740525_signora-amsterdam_en.html) All it says is that the Vatican “confirms by the present notification the judgment already expressed by the competent ecclesiastical authority” which would have been the 1956 negative judgement by the Bishop of the Diocese of Haarlem.

    The Vatican has not said anything to my knowledge regarding the 2002 decision by Bishop Puunt (the “competent ecclesiastical authority”) who ruled that Our Lady of All Nations was of supernatural origin.

    Again, I believe it is time for the Vatican to clarify their position, seeing as the last time they spoke about Our Lady of All Nations was in 1974 at which time they simply confirmed the decision of the local Bishop at the time.

    Well, in 2002 there was a new ruling by the local Bishop, this time favorable.

  • A MAST

    YES YES YES YES YES YES
    YES YES YES YES YES
    YES YES YES YES
    YES YES YES YES
    YES YES YES
    YES YES YES YES
    YES YES YES YES YES
    ” FOR HEAVENS SAKE! “

  • Manny

    In the book “The Mystical City of God” by Mary of Agreda, the hidden life of Mary, the visionary nun explains thayt God allowed Mary to mystically feel the passion, the very pain that Jesus suffered on the road to Calvary… in union with her Son, she can be declared “co-redeemer”.

  • Deoacveritatimyfaithsustainsm

    ABSOLUTELY, YES.

  • Gallibus

    Your comment brings me to a new awareness and admiration for the faith and courage of the disciples and Apostles of Jesus’s time in applying discernment and reason to their faith in Jesus. They did not wait for others of greater faith to mandate their acceptance but went forward in faith, receiving the benefits in their life-time, even dying for the faith. In our day Jesus weeps for our lack of faith; ‘Oh, era of no faith at all!’ He has said. we are so afraid of hearing messages claimed to be from God these days in case we are misled; but we seem to have no fear of ignoring God – which is another form of deception. Satan is very clever, so one should heed the advice of Our Lord and ‘stay awake’.

    March 17, 1988 http://www.tlig.org
    “Vassula, listen to My Voice, as in the beginning of My call;
    well before you existed, I called many to serve Me; yes, those were the Virtuous Days when blessings were welcomed; I called wretched souls and they never doubted that it was I, their God and Saviour, calling them; their entourage would not doubt either, like they doubt today; My Blood was shed to irrigate your hearts and allow you to live in My Light;O creation, was My Blood shed in vain? this era would tell you: “do not listen, shut your ears for the voice you hear is certainly the devil’s”; and to those I blessed, giving them visions, today these blessed souls would be mocked and discouraged by My own, from within My House; they would be determined and ever so ready to condemn Me; in spite of themselves they are condemning Me in the presence of men, when they are denying My Gifts; when My Blessings were welcomed, the words I would hear from My own to those who would tell them of My call, would be these words: “open your ears, son, for it could indeed be God calling you”; let My creation read Samuel’s call again; those were the Virtuous Days when blessings were welcomed;

    I wish I could say today upon you creation: “Era of little Faith”, as before, but I can only say this of you today: “O Era of No-Faith at all”!”

    God bless you with the gift of faith.

  • petitefleur921

    I believe Our Lady suffered The Passion along with her Son. And I believe that she continues to work with him, in a mystical union beyond all other human beings, toward our reunion with God, But I don’t really understand how The Church has ever officially proclaimed as doctrine beliefs not backed up by Holy Scripture. For such an important step, I can’t understand why Church Tradition would so heavily outweigh Sacred Scripture, rather than seeking a balance in the various components of theological reflection. I believe the fullness of Mary’s life and death is a mystery in the Gospels for a reason…that she herself wants only to point to her son, Jesus Christ. I certainly don’t know the mind of the Blessed Mother, but in my love for her, imagine she would not be happy with anything that seems to place her on equal footing with The Lord. I also doubt she would be happy with a doctrine that would be so easily misunderstood, not only by Catholics, but would likely forever end any hope of reunion with our fellow Christians.
    I have already seen her referred to as Co-Redemptrix. As much as I know she continues to work together with Christ for our benefit, I don’t see how one could elevate her to a position of more than a human being, which I believe this would. She is blessed with extraordinary graces through which she cooperates fully with God’s will, (and I believe was destined by her own unique love from all eternity for this role). However, Jesus Christ, Son of God is our one and only Redeemer. We state this in our Creed. He alone died and rose from the dead for our Salvation. We state this in our Creed. If we don’t proclaim this, I don’t think we are Catholics, nor are we Christians.

  • petitefleur921

    I believe the Blessed Mother is our Mediatrix and Advocate. However, the preface “co” can also mean having equal authority as in Co-Chairs. We are all supposed to be cooperating with Christ to “work out our salvation” as Paul states. She is uniquely perfect in her example of this and seeks to share her own salvation with that of the entire world because she loves us as our true mother. Actually, I believe she is motherhood itself.

  • bluesuede

    Mary as well as St. Joseph consecrated their virginity to God.

  • I_Kibot

    What if Mother Mary’s answered to angel Gabriel is NO?
    So its a BIG YES!

  • BillinJax

    Steve
    Our Prayer:
    Oh virgin mother Mary most pure and full of grace, God’s promise for mankind has been fulfilled in your acceptance to be his chosen one to bring forth his divine mercy by your complete obedience to his will through and with his beloved Son our Lord Jesus.
    Our Witness:
    It was God the Father making the proposal to the “woman” he
    had chosen to fulfill his Will and she accepted, not to gain anything for herself but to offer freely and willingly not only the fruit of her womb but her entire life and being for the salvation of the world. Mary became “Christian” before Christianity had its own identity.
    Does anyone doubt Mary’s complete understanding of Jesus and his mission? She knew what the Spirit had asked her to do and she accepted because it was her desire to do the Will of God at all times. Those 30 years spent in a divine love arrangement with Jesus at her side had to be the ultimate bonding experience. Their lives and thoughts became one in union with the Father which
    is evidenced in their interactions recorded in the gospels.
    “Mother, (not to worry) did you not know that I must be about my Fathers business”? “Son, they have no wine!” “What would you have me do?” “Do whatever HE tells you!” “Woman, behold your son; John, behold your mother”. Though little of their discourse is recorded in scripture there is no doubt they shared an infinite consciousness of their divine and eternal union and the Father’s
    plan for them throughout eternity.
    Awareness, knowledge, and trust were so evident in Mary’s conversations with our Lord. She knew who he was and why he had come. It would be totally unreasonable to imagine that Mary and Jesus spent all those years together without discourse regarding his being, his mission, and his destiny. She was
    the active and ordained “co-participant” in all of it like any mother only more so because of it’s divine origin and purpose as foretold by the annunciation angel.

  • aabuna

    That Joseph was a (consecrated) virgin, has no basis in Church teaching.

  • aabuna

    Just like “co-” doesn’t mean “equal”, so “until” doesn’t imply any change afterwards. So to say that “their marriage (was not consummated) until after she gave birth to Jesus,” says nothing about the marriage being consummated after Jesus’ birth. It was not.

  • Prostrate In Awe

    Marty, I did not say “All have sinned…” The Bible says that. Glad you have found peace with the FSSP. The Western Rite Orthodox churches use the same form of the Mass as the Tridentine but in the vernacular. Much less nationalistic than Eastern Rite Orthodox and yet still the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and 100% valid sacraments. No Roman Catholic has ever been able to answer my question, “Was Mary in need of salvation?” If she was not subject to original sin (Immaculate Conception Doctrine) and she never actually sinned, Christ’s blood would not have needed to wash her clean as was required for the rest of humanity. Also, the concept of co-pilot doesn’t hold up, one expects the co-pilot to do his or her share of piloting when the pilot is away or busy with other chores. Mary cannot and was not the source of our redemption, only the sacrifice made upon Calvary was sufficient as the atoning sacrifice. You don’t call the pilot’s mother co-pilot just because she gave birth to the pilot. Nor do you call the priest’s mother, co-priest. At some point, this just becomes new age, paganistic thought that humans can be equal to God. The Church has thrived for 2000 years without this dogma. Why add to the solid deposit of faith? Remember in Romans why God gave them over to vile lusts? It was because they worshiped the created over the creator. This dogma will lead many well-intentioned souls into idolatry. Humbly yours, PIA

  • Chris

    I respectfully disagree. Approved apparition testimony tells us this doctrine is true as noted by others in this section with the Mother Agreda’s visions. But the Bible points to this doctrine too. And this is not putting her on the same level. It is the recognition that her Biblical “yes” to the Angel Gabriel in fact helped redeem us because like all of us she had a free will and could have said no. Christ did the redeeming true and there is one mediator between God the Father and man, Jesus Christ, as the Bible says. But who best brings us to Christ? Mary! Her words to us in the Bible at Cana are to “Do whatever He tells you”. Her example to us is to say “Yes” to God’s will. Her position in Our Church is Biblical. In her Magnificat she says, “all generations shall call me blessed”. So as Christ brings us back to the Father, Mary brings us to Christ. So Mary is Co-Redemptrix.

  • Chris

    Please see my comment to Francis below. Thank you

  • Wm

    Agree. In Scripture, they came to her at the wedding feast in Cana. She interceded for them. She returned and said, ‘Do as He tells you.’ It seems then, this principle has been implicit since the beginning.

  • David

    True Marian doctrine and devotions always lead us to Jesus. Our Lady said yes of her own free will at the Annunciation and how she must have suffered during the Passion! She now has total joy in the Resurrection of her Son and prays for us all in heavenly glory.
    Yes! to Our lady as Co-Redemptrix!

  • Florin S.

    Aug. 17th: I don’t understand why we would need another Marian ‘doctrine’…we have more than enough. I love Our Lady very much…but another doctrine or title is over the top…

  • Florin S.

    Aug. 17th…why throw more confusion into the arena…Our Lady is the Mother of God and our Mother…she loves us and we love her…it’s the theologians who want to keep adding titles and doctrines…let it be!

  • Jackie

    yes

  • Harry Flynn

    Again, if there was no problem, why did Scicluna raise the red flag?

  • chosen4life

    this Doctrine has been in the works for quite a few years. when will the Vatican approve it only God knows. praying for it to happen soon! it is a beautiful and expressive belief that can bring more richness to our faith.

  • iggram

    Our Lady of All Nations On 31 May 2002 Bishop Jozef Marianus Punt of Haarlem, having concluded a period of investigation, declared the apparitions accorded Ida Peerdeman of Amsterdam, Holland, in which the Blessed Virgin Mary asked to be known as Our Lady of All Nations, to be “of a supernatural origin”.

    Decree of 31 May 2002 (Requires Adobe Acrobat Reader)

    This decree ends a 45 year period of investigation and decision, as reflected in the following history:

    7 May 1956 – Bishop of Haarlem finds no evidence of the supernatural nature of the apparitions, and prohibits public veneration.

    2 March 1957 – Bishop of Haarlem confirms this decision with consent of the Holy Office (13 March 1957).

    24 May 1972 – Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, responding to a letter of 29 March from the Bishop, re-affirms its decision.

    27 June 1974 – CDF affirms its earlier decision, after a deeper investigation, inviting the faithful to discontinue all forms propaganda with regard to these alleged apparitions and revelations.

    31 May 1996 – The then Bishop of Haarlem, Henry Bomers, published a Notification clarifying the distinction between the title, image and prayer, on one hand, and the messages on the other. The title, image and prayer had been approved for private veneration since the 1950s (according to this decree), and he was now granting the privilege of public veneration, as well. The belief in the messages had been prohibited, but now was permitted according to one’s own conscience, the Church being unable to rule definitively “at the moment”. As the decree notes, he consulted with “official authorities”, without specifying who those authorities were.

    3 December 1997 – The Bishop writes Letter (HB-97-403) commending the “Action of The Lady of All Nations” and the work of Fr. Paul Maria Sigl.

    3 May 2002 – In a Letter of 3 May 2002, Raphael Soffner of the public affairs office of the diocese of Haarlem affirmed to EWTN that the public veneration of Our Lady of All Nations by title, image and prayer, is permitted to Catholics by decision of the Bishop of Haarlem, “with the consent of the Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith in Rome”. Catholics may make “a personal judgment according to their conscience” regarding the messages and apparition.

    31 May 2002 – Bishop Punt declares the apparitions to be of supernatural origin.

    July 2005 – The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith requests “that the words who once was Mary be left out of the prayer of the Lady of All Nations out of consideration for those who do not understand this phrase.” The ending of the prayer is now to say: “May the Lady of All Nations, the Blessed Virgin Mary, be our Advocate.” (Letter of December 2006).

    The Expression “Who Once Was Mary”

    In the original approved prayer, the Blessed Virgin was referred to as Our Lady of All Nations “who once was Mary”. It is explained by the promoters of the devotion in the following manner:

    This refers to the fact that Mary is no longer just Mary but rather The Lady, The Woman at the foot of the Cross. These words refer to her Eternal Motherhood over all of us, for she is Mother Whom Jesus gave to us from the Cross with the words: Woman behold thy Son!

    Nonetheless, as noted above the apostolate changed the prayer in 2005 to comply with a request of the CDF, as noted in a 2006 letter.

    Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL

  • Marty Dancy

    Look, ask a priest these things. I am not a theologian. I actually don’t care whether they proclaim the dogma or not. I will stick with what I know. I am not interested in the western Orthodox rite because they do not have enough churches when I travel and they just aren’t around enough. If I am happy where I am, why look further? I am not the one who adds dogmas, the pope is. I am just a single person so no one worries where I go or what I do. I doubt if they will proclaim that doctrine anyway because they are so addicted to ecumenism that they do not want to put up barriers to the unity they hope for but will not get unless God actually intervenes. Did Mary need salvation? Yes! In the Magnificat, she said God my saviour! However, she was saved when she was prepared to be the Mother of God. We have to work out our salvation as St. Paul says and we have to always pray and fight temptation not to sin. However, I believe that Mary was spared this so she could be that Theotokos as the Orthodox and eastern rites call her at the Liturgy. She was human, yet held the divine in Her and therefore could not be stained in sin like we are. Her situation was unique and no one else in the world has ever been like Her, the most glorious ever virgin Mary!

  • Tom McGinn

    Well Said. She is the mother of God. A beautiful profound mystery.

  • Harry Flynn

    Yep, you’ve drunk the Kool-Aid!

  • Milton

    Harry,

    You are not dealing with the discrepancy I have pointed out to you.

    The Vatican’s 1974 statement simply confirmed the previous negative judgement given by the local bishop in 1956. The Vatican’s 1974 statement confirmed the local bishop as the “competent ecclesiastical authority” and simply reaffirmed his decision.

    The 1974 Vatican document says nothing about the 2002 favorable decision given by the local bishop – Bishop Puunt.

    Father Scicluna’s arugment in his essay appears to be flawed. How could the 1974 Vatican document dealing with the 1956 decision have any bearing on the 2002 decision? It makes no sense and is why I believe the Vatican should issue another notification or clarification on this matter. The 1974 Vatican document appears to simply delegate the matter to the local bishop’s (who is the first authority when it comes to alleged private revelations).

  • accredo

    No – Too much confusion among many on Mary’s role in the Church today. it would be totally misconstrued by non-Catholic brethren we are in dialogue with.

  • Riki

    MARY, SWEETEST OF ALL MOTHERS

    Oh Thou,
    most beautiful a woman
    most tender of all mothers
    most brilliant STAR of DAVID
    Masterpiece of God’s creation
    to the Holy Trinity
    most precious Pearl
    towards your Son the Golden Bridge
    Golden Gate
    to the Holy City
    thru which our Savior
    came and comes
    Most sacred Vessel
    ever
    containing the most Holy
    My soul,
    is drowning
    in the beauty of your eyes
    in the sweetness of your smile
    in the burning oven of your heart
    in the greatness of your littleness
    in the eloquence of your silence
    in the mystery of your simplicity
    Oh Thou,
    safest of my earthly havens
    dearest hiding-place of mine
    truly my refuge
    my sweetest, sweetest mother
    keep me with your Son Divine
    save me from the wordly evils
    strengthen my so fragile faith
    cover me
    with your motherly mantle
    Oh Mary, you most gentle
    Your child I am FOREVER !!!

    Rita Biesemans
    August 10 1999 Feast of Saint Lawrence

  • Bernadette

    Yes – we need this dogma in order for the world to turn to Mary with a confidence that has never been matched in all of Christian history. She has been given a powerful role by God and if we studied Catholic history, we would find that she has a tender mother’s heart that has in the past (and will in the future) soften the blow of Justice due to mankind which has turned away from God. The condition is prayer – we must pray to her like never before and this dogma would help instill this boost of confidence and ignite people’s hearts to pray to her.She is the one who was necessary to bring Jesus into the world for our salvation – she will be necessary before His second coming. Now is the time for this dogma!

  • Riki

    MARY, SWEETEST OF ALL MOTHERS

    Oh Thou,
    most beautiful a woman
    most tender of all mothers
    most brilliant STAR of DAVID
    Masterpiece of God’s creation
    to the Holy Trinity
    most precious Pearl
    towards your Son the Golden Bridge
    Golden Gate
    to the Holy City
    thru which our Savior
    came and comes
    Most sacred Vessel
    ever
    containing the most Holy
    My soul,
    is drowning
    in the beauty of your eyes
    in the sweetness of your smile
    in the burning oven of your heart
    in the greatness of your littleness
    in the eloquence of your silence
    in the mystery of your simplicity
    Oh Thou,
    safest of my earthly havens
    dearest hiding-place of mine
    truly my refuge
    my sweetest, sweetest mother
    keep me with your Son Divine
    save me from the wordly evils
    strengthen my so fragile faith
    cover me
    with your motherly mantle
    Oh Mary, you most gentle
    Your child I am FOREVER !!!

    Rita Biesemans
    August 10 1999 Feast of Saint Lawrence

  • BeckitaMaria

    The Holy See never formally conducted a separate investigation. All along in the process, the CDF at the Vatican simply approved the various decisions made by the local ordinaries in Amsterdam over time: http://motheofgod.com/threads/nailing-it-down-the-lady-of-all-nations.2608

    There is precedence for the authorities in the Church reversing such decisions. Think St. Faustina and Saint Padre Pio. May they pray for us.

  • BeckitaMaria

    What a pity that so much confusion via misinformation surrounds the process of declaring the Lady of All nations as an authentic private revelation. In fact, rarely does a Pope make a formal pronouncement concerning private revelation. That obligation has been delegated to the local ordinary who then presents the findings to the CDF. My spiritual director, a holy Marian priest, theologian, Mariologist and canon lawyer, Fr. John B Wang states: “Very, very rarely does the CDF intervene to conduct its own investigation as in the case of Medjugorje.”

    Please call the experts at EWTN to have a visit with them concerning what they have posted on their website. I’m sure they can address your concerns more eloquently than I.
    Blessed John Duns Scotus, pray for us.

  • BeckitaMaria

    Then Cardinal Ratzinger’s approval is implicit in the declaration being made.

    Only Bishop Scicluna can state why he made the statements he has made.

    Many are the theologians, bishops, priests, and religious, including those declared Blessed, who have supported the most recent decision which supercedes previous statements by the various local ordinaries. Here’s a summary of the various decisions: http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/amsterdam

    If this is of God, as so many believe, the Spouse of our Blessed Mother will set into motion the deeds and words which will at last allow the truth to be clearly known.

  • BeckitaMaria

    Thank you for this clarification! Ave Maria!

  • BeckitaMaria

    Excellent points made! Thank you.

  • BeckitaMaria

    Well said. Again, thank you.

  • petitefleur921

    I’m sorry, Chris. Much as I love Our Lady, her “yes” to God’s will did not redeem us. Only Christ is our Redeemer. I am sure His Mother would say the same. Apparitions and visions are not the same as Scriptural guidance and there is nothing in Scripture to say that Mary in any way redeems us, only that she agreed to be the Bearer of the Redeemer, which is quite different. To use your own reasoning, that “Christ brings us back to the Father” does not make Him Co-Father in the Blessed Trinity. Also, Mary does not “bring us to Christ”. Only God does this. She points the way to know and love HIm. She is a creature, like all humans, without the divine capacity to redeem her fellow creatures. Assistance in this redemption is the calling of all Christians, despite her unique and forever blessed role in salvation history.

  • petitefleur921

    Sorry, Colin. How does this refer to the question of the title of Co-Redemtrix?

  • petitefleur921

    Chris, please see my reply below and let us all invoke the guidance of the Holy Spirit in this discernment. Thank you for listening.

  • petitefleur921

    It is not the horrible suffering of Jesus, felt by His Mother as well, through which we are redeemed. It is the miracle of the Incarnation through which God Himself chose to become man, to suffer and die and rise again for our sake. I believe this question is very simply answered in our Creed. All that is stated in Our Creed concerning the Blessed Mother is that The Lord was born of her, a virgin, through the action of the Holy Spirit. She has a miraculous relationship with the Holy Spirit through which Christ came into the world. This does not mean she is divine herself. Only the divinity of God, united with human in the Incarnation of Christ, is capable of our redemption.

  • Harry Flynn

    I am well familiar with the 1974 Notification, having been reading it off and on for the past 10 or so years. There is more in it than what you cited.
    It does not merely “affirm” the local Ordinary, it also commands.
    I challenge you to find the command and let us know what it is. And please, don’t contextualize–just find the command and tell us what it is.

  • Harry Flynn

    You can’t argue from silence.
    Bishop Punt was all-for the Amsterdam case, having been raised on it from his mother’s knee and even “consecrated” to the vision as a child by his mother.
    Saying Ratzinger’s consent was “implied” by the 2002 is plain ludicrous. You offer no support, no documentation, and the Church is governed by public documents.
    So here we have the Promotor of Justice for the CDF, now a Father of said Dicastery, writing that there is a problem with Punt’s declaration.
    You are correct to say Scicluna is the only one who can state why he stated what he stated, but the fact is if there was no problem, there would have been no statement in the first place!

  • Harry Flynn

    No one is arguing reversals happen. The question is, did Rome do this with Amsterdam?
    I have cited evidence to suggest there is no proof Rome did such. All you have offered is an argument from silence. Who stands with the better argument?
    In response to another post just above, yes, the local Ordinary has the power to rule in such instances (pity the faithful didn’t listen to Medjugorje’s bishop!). The fact of the matter here, however, is Rome DID weigh-in on the Amsterdam case and issued its own Notification that apparently was never reversed.
    Fact is: Disobedience to the Holy See is the reason for this “confusion” you speak of. Fr. Klos had NO BUSINESS promoting Amsterdam against the wishes of the Holy See but he did it anyway.

  • bluesuede

    There is no basis in Church teaching that St. Joseph was married before, or fathered children either. We do know that he was descended from King David and that he was a “just” man and that he was old when he married the Blessed Virgin. It is Catholic dogma that Mary was a virgin before Christ and was always a virgin. We do know that God prepares certain people beforehand, some from birth, to fulfill great tasks in His plan for our instruction and salvation. The only purpose that Mary fulfilled was to be the Mother of the Son of God and the only purpose for St. Joseph was to fulfull the obligations of foster-fatherhood of the Son of God and to be the provider and protecter, as well as being a complete family; father, son, and mother to the world in which, by God’s will, they were to live. It’s not a stretch to believe that just as priests and monks are celibate, that it fits that since Mary and Joseph had but one exemplary vocation in the Plan of God, that there were great virtues offered to God, and celibacy fits.

  • PhilESieve

    It reflects upon God the titles we give to honor his mother. Why is this so revolutionary? We have about 30 to 50 amongst the various liturgies. I think leaders fear upsettong ecumenism efforts and making our lives more diffocult. The truth is thrir poor management of their respective dioceses, from liturgical abuse to minor abuse, has done plenty of that. We need the graces God would give us by opening up or opening wider vessels of grace, as she can do what we have failed to do on our part.

  • PhilESieve

    Of course, we lay people have failed her and God miserably, as well.

  • Harry Flynn

    So the heresy is syncretism & indifferentism.
    Proclaiming Our Lady’s mediation as dogma will remedy this?

  • Chris

    This theological truth as most real truth requires a long explanation. I certainly understand and respect what you are saying. However, I did point out in Scripture my position. You just don’t accept it. And you know the scripture only thinking is the thinking of Protestants. Tradition has its place in the Catholic Church and this position of Mary we are talking about is more Traditional than Biblical. And you can bring me to Christ. My position is Mary does it best as written in the Bible as I pointed out. And while I agree apparition and visions are not Spiritual guidance it does have a place in clarifying issues just like this. For example, the doctrine of the non Biblical Immaculate Conception now accepted as dogma was noted 4 years prior at the apparition in Lourdes France by a poorly educated peasant girl named Bernadette now a Saint. Mary appeared to her and said she was the Immaculate Conception. This Saint’s body has been incorrupt for over 150 years! In the Catholic Church approved writings of Mary Agreda, which by the way is the most erudite writing I have ever read, states Mary is co-redemptrix. Her body is also incorrupt. This is proof to me by God but I recognize others have a higher threshold before they believe.

  • Marc

    Mary never lost her virginity, either before, during, or after Christ’s birth. The Holy Spirit conceived Christ in her womb, therefore she was the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and NO MAN could touch her after that. In the Song of Songs she is referred to as a “sealed fountain” and an “enclosed garden.” Not only that, in Ezekiel, the prophet declares that : “This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened; AND NO MAN SHALL PASS THROUGH IT, BECAUSE THE LORD GOD OF ISRAEL HATH ENTERED IN BY IT, AND IT SHALL BE SHUT.” Also, when the Angel Gabriel tells her she is going to conceive and bear a Son, Mary was already engaged to Joseph, so whereas anybody else would have assumed that the first child conceived after their marriage would be the child the Angel is referring to, Mary doesn’t think this way, because she knows she has already consecrated her virginity to God, and Joseph was not going to take that away from her, which is why she tests the Angel by saying, “How is this going to happen, because I do not know man?” Because if the Angel is really from God, it would know that Mary’s virginity belongs to God and can’t be compromised. Also, as the New Eve, Mary was everything Eve was before Eve ate the forbidden fruit and lost her innocence and all the privileges that went along with it. Therefore, when it came time for Christ to be born, Mary did not undergo a normal delivery, for Isaiah tells us: “Before She goes into labor She gives birth; before the pains overtake her She safely delivers a Man-Child.” As the New Eve, Mary was exempt from the punishments that fell on the first Eve after what she did. Also, as the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament prefigured Mary (it held the words of God, Mary’s womb held the Word Himself; it held the manna from Heaven, Mary’s womb held the Bread of Heaven Himself), the ark was so sacred that no human could touch it except the High Priest (who symbolized Jesus); anyone besides the High Priest who touched the Ark died on the spot. Therefore, Joseph could never have “known” Mary in the sexual sense, as he knew she was the fulfillment of the Ark of the Covenant, and the Mercy Seat for Christ to rule from.

  • Marty Dancy

    I don’t think it would improve relations with other churches but it may get us off the false ecumenical bandwagon and maybe people will just leave each other alone for awhile and not expect us to give up stuff to suit them. I do not like losing our traditions for the sake of ecumenism and maybe this dogma might make them say well that fixes that and they will go their way and we can all let God unite the churches at His second coming or just get along as friends or something. Respecting each other is fine but watering down our faith turns me off. Personally, I am happy enough with the four Marian doctrines we have but if they want to add the fifth one, there is nothing I can do about it and I will accept it but I know the protestants will not and they won’t accept the pope either. People have to convert in the heart for true unity, not be swept into a false unity which most would not stick with anyway. There are some good things that have come out since the council but false ecumenism is not one of them. I really like my fssp parish very much and feel at home there. We have all our traditions that we love.

  • FRANCES

    I SAY YES,YES,YES !!!

  • Milton

    I can do better than that Harry. I can quote the entire thing for you below and will let you find the word “command”.

    You have still not dealt with the discrepancy that I pointed out to you.

    Also, if the 1974 Vatican statement affirms that the local bishop is the competent ecclesiastical authority on the matter, then why are you marginalizing the 2002 decision of the local bishop?

    Why are you failing to put the 1974 statement in its proper chronological context in light of the 2002 decision by the competent ecclesiastical authority??

    If I am wrong in my interpretation of the facts, then I will stand corrected, but you yet to explain to me how the 1974 statement has any bearing on or carries any weight over the 2002 statement.

    Full text of the 1974 statement:

    “With regard to the alleged apparitions and revelations of ‘Our Lady of All Nations’, said to have taken place in Amsterdam, the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith considers it advisable to make the following declaration.

    On 7 May 1956, the Bishop of the Diocese of Haarlem (Netherlands), following on a careful examination of the case concerning the supposed apparitions and revelations of “Our Lady of All Nations”, declared that he “found no evidence of the supernatural nature of the apparitions”. He therefore prohibited public veneration of the picture of “Our Lady of All Nations” and the spreading of writings which attributed a supernatural origin to these apparitions and revelations.

    On 2 March 1957, the same Ordinary repeated the above statement. The Holy Office, in a letter dated 13 March of the same year, praised the Bishop’s prudence and pastoral concern and approved of the measures taken. Moreover, in reply to an appeal of the Bishop of Haarlem, dated 29 March 1972, the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, on 24 May of the same year, confirmed the previous decision on the matter.

    At the present time, following on further developments and after a fresh and deeper examination of the case, the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith confirms by the present notification the judgment already expressed by the competent ecclesiastical authority, and invites priests and laity to discontinue all forms of propaganda with regard to the alleged apparitions and revelations of “Our Lady of All Nations”. It exhorts all, moreover, to express their devotion to the Most Holy Virgin, Queen of the Universe (cf. Encyclical Letter Ad Caeli Reginam, AAS 30 [1954], pp. 625-640) by forms of piety which are recognized and recommended by the Church.

    Rome, 25 May 1974.”

  • Milton

    I didn’t know Msgr. Scicluna was “Rome”?

    I didn’t know Msgr. Scicluna was “the competent ecclesiastical authority”?

    I didn’t know Msgr. Scicluna’s essay carried more weight than the CDF’s own 1974 document and more weight than the decisions of the local bishop of of the Diocese of Haarlem?

    The heart of your argument, Harry, is based on the following quote from the catholiclane.com article that you cited above:

    “In his essay, Scicluna states once a decision of the CDF is rendered on an alleged private revelation, the decision is of ‘undisputed hierarchical authority,’ meaning a lower authority cannot overturn it. Interestingly, within this section Scicluna provides a footnote citing the ‘Our Lady of All Nations’ case”

    But the 1974 Notification does not appear to render its own decision. It simply confirmed “…by the present notification the judgment already expressed by the competent ecclesiastical authority…” As I read it, the 1974 Notification simply delegated authority back to the “competent ecclesiastical authority” (the local bishop) and agreed with his earlier 1956 negative judgement. The case would appear to be open, especially since the “competent ecclesiastical authority” (the local bishop) rendered a new decision in 2002.

    Now, if the CDF were to take a fresh look at the 2002 ruling and then condemn it, then that WOULD be the type of “decision” that I believe Msgr. Scicluna was talking about.

  • petitefleur921

    Sorry, Chris, you are right that I don’t accept your Scriptural references as a basis for saying that anyone other than Christ is our Redeemer. You say this yourself. As for “And you can bring me to Christ. My position is that Mary does it best…” I’m sorry I don’t agree with this either. Faith is a gift from God alone. He may use others, through the power of the Holy Spirit, as He did with the cooperation of the Blessed Mother, as instruments, but no one “brings us to Christ” but God in the Persons of the Holy Trinity.
    I don’t only use Scripture in theological reflection and in my first comment mentioned I believe a balanced consideration of every component is important. I have to say, however, I don’t agree that Protestants only consider Scripture in their own discernments. Many give Scripture more weight than Catholics and may say they are led by it alone. But even if they are not conscious of it, they have their own traditional views and the influences of their cultural and personal experiences that impact their interpretation of Scripture and their beliefs. This is just human. We all see truth in our own way. Hopefully, Truth Himself will always guide us.
    I believe Jesus would not begin His earthly ministry until His mother gave Him her blessing, as she did at Cana. He was resistant, I believe, out of concern for leaving her and that both knew it would lead him to His death. So, she once again said, YES, to God’s will by reassuring her son that it was time and she was accepting of this. This also doesn’t mean she is our Redeemer, even co-Redeemer. It means she was the most compassionate, gracious and generous women who would ever live and therefore was appointed by God from all eternity to bear Him into this world. I believe she continues to offer to bear Him into our lives and love her with all my heart…not as my Redeemer, as my Mother…she is Motherhood…that seems to me the most beautiful, venerable title she could have.

  • aabuna

    I’ll concede that Joseph was celibate/chaste during his marriage to the Blessed Virgin, but it’s simply not true that “It follows that . . .” Joseph very well might have been married before, and possibly even brought children into his marriage to Mary. Having been married, with or without children, would not interfere with his being a “just” man or a fitting foster-father to Jesus.

  • Harry Flynn

    Nice attempt to confuse my point, but no cigar.
    By “Rome” I was speaking of the 1974 Notification.
    Secondly, a member of a Roman Dicastery that has Magisterial authority has raised a red flag.
    Deal with it.

  • Harry Flynn

    Now, with that text, please find for us what directive (a.k.a. “Command” in the old tongue) the Holy See gave.
    Don’t attempt to side-step this again.

  • Gallibus

    Some points to ponder:

    “Those who disregard the Mother also disregard God the Father.
    They may boast in God the Father, but if they do not honour Mary as their Mother, then they are the children of satan’s schisms.
    Only one creature has been granted the angelic salutation ‘full of grace’.
    She alone imparts all graces from heaven to Her children.
    The children of the devil wail in horror at each ‘Hail Mary’, for it is the angelic herald of the salvation of souls (Jesus) presented through a Woman. Genesis 3:14-15 “So the Lord God said to the serpent ….
    I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers. She will crush your head and you shall lie in wait at her heel.”
    Those broken from the vine (breakaway churches) endeavour to camouflage themselves as Mine and proudly cry out ‘Lord’ to Me.
    I am Jesus, the Son of God and the Incarnated one of Mary.
    I say now – those souls who honour not My Mother are not known to Me.
    To discard Her mediation, to mock My Beloved Mother, or to negate Her role as Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, is to deny My Incarnation.”
    Debra: ‘Oh Lord God, Your glory is found welcomed again by this dear Mother. Surety of salvation and closeness to You is found in her safe bosom. Mary, Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate pray for us all.”

    “He who fails to recognize Me as the Son of Man is found slyly dividing My flock by his dishonouring of My Mother. His anger to this Mother reveals his falsehood.”

    “i.e. I understood that those who dishonour Mary have chosen the devil as their Father, and the truth of where they stand in God’s glory is revealed by their relationship to Mary, the chosen Mother of God.”
    Ecclesiasticus 3:16 “he is cursed of God who angers His Mother”. [JB]

    “The proud voice of the devil is heard in such souls which dishonour My Blessed Mother. This beloved Woman of Ours leads Her children
    to the Eternal Kingdom through Her mediation of graces. She alone
    has been given the authority of My Blood to crush the head of the serpent.
    This authority She shares with Her children. Mary guards Her children from all heresy. Mary shares the fullness of grace with these little ones of Hers.
    Mary leads Her children to know Me as both the Son of God AND the Son of Man. Mary’s character as identified by the angel as “Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with You” is found in Her children.
    Those sad souls who fail to join the heavenly messenger (angel) in hailing (honouring) Her are miserable in eternity. Mary is Our heavenly choice. Receive Her. A humble heart receives the Mother of Heavenly honour.
    satan and his children have enmity for Her.”
    VISION: Of a huge golden rope like Rosary beads, coming down through
    opening clouds. Then I saw many people being pulled heavenward on this.

    “The Rosary of The Woman is a heavenly conductor to My kingdom –
    a sure path to Me. My pleasure in the Rosary prayer is great. Pray My Mother’s prayer and welcome Me in glory.”

    This is a transcript of the conversation between DEBRA of Australia and the Lord dated 31st October 1994.

    Points to ponder and for your discernment.

  • Chris

    I understand. This saying is hard and not all accept it. They did the same with Christ when He tried to explain the Eucharist and he lost Apostles see John chapater 6. You see that how it is with real truth. People get off the train of following where the evidence leads and go with what they believe. You said it yourself. “I believe” this and I believe that. Why? You see when you have a made up mind on things then any evidence, like what I brought with Lourdes or the miracle of incorruptiblity gets explained away because it does not agree with what you made up in your mind to believe. You had no comment on that. Hum, a Venerable Saint’s writings approved by the Catholic Church whose body has been incorrupt for hundreds of years does not give you pause to a least reconsider your position? Well, they told Christ they were sorry that they couldn’t believe so I guess I should not feel so bad.

  • http://codephined.com Daniel Brooks

    … Maybe you didn’t mean it like this but, “we as Church infallibly proclaim”? We, the laity, aren’t the Magisterium…and cannot infallibly proclaim. We can request.

  • Milton

    Deal with the discrepancy.

    Deal with the fact that Rome has confirmed the competent ecclesiastical authority to be the local bishop.

    Deal with the fact that the local bishop rendered a new decision in 2002.

    Do you understand the difference between 1974 and 2002?

  • Ted

    This will be proclaimed and when it is the world will begin to experience some major changes – God will bless us with incredible much needed Graces

  • thomas290

    I think definitely a new Marian Doctrine as co-redemptrix can be established based on St. Louis Montfort’s True Devotion to Mary and the underlying 4 principles discussed. 1) Hail Mary Full of Grace…Sin cannot exist when one is full of Grace. The bible clearly states she is the only one referred as woman full of grace. 2) The Wedding of Cana- “Do as he says” Mary always points to Jesus and instructs do as “he says” and changes water to wine. Prior to that Christ said “woman its not my time..” but he did it anyway. Christ does what his mom tells him to. 3)Presentation of Jesus in the Temple; Simeon’s message. “Like a sword piercing your heart” Her Son’s brutal crucifixion 4) On the Cross. Jesus says to John (the disciple Jesus loved) “Son this your Mother. Mother this is your son” and John took Mary into his house that day. Some even say Ephesus, Turkey is the where the house is John Built and i believe St. Catherine’s Emmerich’s (the late stigmatist of Germany) vision about how Jesus took her by the hand to heaven. If people truly study and pray on this then it can be said without a doubt that Our lady is co-redemptrix and is always working and embellishing the good works of her children to God and is intimately tied to the sufferings of Christ. Christ’s redemptive works is what ultimately saves from sin and Mary intercedes for us at the foot of the cross.

  • Marc

    Florin, it’s not “another” Marian doctrine, its a doctrine THAT ALREADY EXISTS, and has existed from the very beginning of Christianity, both in Sacred Scripture and 2,000 years of unbroken Tradition received directly from Jesus’ original 12 Apostles. All that’s left is for the Church to DEFINE the doctrine INFALLIBLY… Every time the Church has declared an Apostolic Teaching to be Dogma is in response to an active heresy that attacks that particular Teaching, so the Church, guided infallibly by the Holy Spirit Whom Christ promised to His Church to keep His Teachings from falling into error, declares that particular doctrine that the heretics are attacking to be an UNALTERABLE TEACHING OF CHRIST and therefore absolutely necessary for a true Christian to believe or else he/she will put his salvation in great jeopardy. The reason we need this Fifth Marian Doctrine to be declared once and for all as an AUTHENTIC and PERPETUAL teaching of Christ, is precisely because all of the MILLIONS OF PROTESTANTS, and, because of them, MANY CATHOLICS WHO ARE IN DANGER OF FALLING INTO PROTESTANTISM THEMSELVES, believe that Christ’s Mother is nothing special, nothing more than a “borrowed womb”, after which He no longer had any use for her…. Even Satan and his devils know better than this, which is why they fear Mary so dreadfully, because they don’t dare utter such blasphemies against Her, out of fear for retaliation from her Divine Son! That’s why Satan never insults Her in exorcisms (although he insults Christ and everyone else), but he doesn’t have to, because his servants, the PROTESTANTS do such a great job of it themselves.

  • Pat

    Whether it is proclaimed or not, it exists and is true. Anyone who thinks about what has occurred throughout history understands it to be so.

  • Lilla Marie

    changed…

  • Sharon

    Absolutely yes! Our Mother has requested the Fifth Marian Dogma during apparitions in Amsterdam- the first one being on March 25, 1945, the Feast of the Annunciation and Incarnation. Our Mother appeared under the Title LADY OF ALL NATIONS with a prayer for the world. Our Mother chose the day She will receive Her crown of the Fifth Marian Dogma and that date is May 31, the Feast of the Visitation and the date of Her final apparition as the LADY OF ALL NATIONS. Please refer to http://www.ewtn to read more on the LADY OF ALL NATIONS.

  • bluesuede

    What I mean is, many choose a life of poverty, chastity and obedience in order to serve God in a life of holiness. It’s true that according to Scripture, we just don’t know about Joseph’s life before Mary. St. Joseph has been compared with the Joseph of the OT, who was mistreated and left for dead by his brothers and managed to serve God for many years unknown to his family, then later, he had the chance to reveal himself and show them forgiveness and generosity. Some mystics and saints ( St. Bridget, Catherine Emmerick and Mary of Agreda and others) have revealed in visions about the life of Jesus and Mary, that Joseph wanted to be chaste when he married Mary, but was open to the Will of God too. Then finding out Mary was to be the Mother of God, they agreed to observe chastity. Joseph, received a special grace from God to be pure and no doubt, went on to live a very high degree of holiness.

  • petitefleur921

    I am very much interested in the lives of the saints, particularly St. Bernadette, the miracles at Lourdes and St. Therese the Little Flower. I have also studied the mystical writings of St. Teresa of Avila and St Catherine of Sienna. I am blessed to be a spiritual child of St. Pio, whom my family knew well. I do not argue against the miracles, visions and mysteries accepted by The Church. However, I see no connection at all between this and the proposition to consider the Blessed Mother as our Redeemer in any way, including Co-Redeemer. I say this instead of Co-Redemtrix because I hope it is a more powerful way to show what this proposed new Marian dogma would state. Everything I have stated I believe is congruent with what we say are our beliefs as Catholics as proclaimed in The Creed. Again, there is nothing there (which is the foundation of Church Tradition) nor in Scripture to make the claim that the Mother of Jesus Christ is His partner in our redemption, other than in her complete cooperation with the will of God to love us as her own children and therefore participate with her Son to encourage our faith, which is a gift from God.
    Mary did not redeem us. Only Jesus Christ, Our Savior redeemed us on the Cross and through His resurrection, offering us through His sacrifice the miraculous gift of salvation. No matter how important the role of the Blessed Mother, she did not redeem us and to say otherwise is to go against the Creed of our Church, the most ancient and perfect proclamation of our beliefs.
    I have a feeling, Chris that you have taken an adversarial position against whatever I say. This is not a helpful dialogue in the discernment process. So, I say we agree to disagree. I hope you will turn to the proclaimed beliefs and doctrines of our Church to see that this proposed new Marian doctrine must be limited to Mediatrix and Advocate in order to remain consistent with our beliefs as Catholics and Christians. Christ alone, Chris, is our Redeemer…to say otherwise is to defy and contradict the teaching of the church from its very beginning. Blessings to you. Peace and let us pray for one another in our journey with The Lord.

  • Chris

    Just remember that if you can’t see they connection doesn’t mean there is no connection.That would be arrogance in thinking. To discern the truth you need humility of thought. You have to be open to the possibility of a different truth than you know know. Yes, truth does change with better understanding and more facts. Many of the faithful believe we are blinded in this life to spiritual truths that we will fully understand when we die. Christ blinded the Pharasees didn’t He? Life is a test by God and we all have a mission to perform for him. If we don’t understand a particular spiritual truth then that’s when rely on Our Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit to discern these things for us. As I said the Church has already said Mary Agreda writings were consistent with faith and morals years ago because the Church leaders gave those writings it’s Immpiture and Nil Olstat. However, it is not Dogma yet per the Vatican. The Pope has to do that just as they did with the Immaculate Conception dogma. JP II was inclined to do it but didn’t. Everything in time. I sorry you feel I am aversarial while making my point. I am trying to get it right not be right. In order to help you and me get to that point I suggest you meditate on a statue of Mary holding the child Jesus. I see a Mother giving you her Child to save you and me. In that scene I see a Co-Redemptrix.

  • MomOf10

    I agree with Costanoan. A less confusing term would need to be used; I am married to a Protestant, and when he previously came across “co-redemptrix”, he totally came away with the misunderstanding stated above- for him, he thought that Mary was being declared an equal savior as Jesus. I clarified it for him, but I still think that in order to actively work for Christian unity, the Catholic Church needs to use a better choice of words.

  • petitefleur921

    Thank you. I humbly suggest that you meditate on the Creed of the Catholic Church in seeking the Truth of our beliefs. Peace.

  • Frank

    Should be proclaimed, then the triumph of the Immaculate Heart Of Mary will bring in the era of peace!

  • Kentucky Liz

    Agree with you about Lumen Gentium 8 but I think it should stop there. That is a dogmatic constitution which refers to Mary as Mediatrix and Advocate. But it stops there. It does not call her Co Redemptrix. The bishops and theologians weren’t careless with the council documents. Mary has been called Mediatrix and Advocate from the earliest times in prayer, liturgy, art, and early church writings. Example: Sub Tuum Presidium prayer which was the precursor to the Memorare. But no where did they call her Co Redemptrix. There was a heresy called Collyridianism which I think this doctrine tiptoes too close to in its elevation of Mary. I love Mary, and wish everyone would. I don’t need to shower titles upon my mother. I just love her and accept her tender love. Co Redemptrix should not be dogmatized because it anathematizes and condemns Christians who don’t believe in it. Why the need to dogmatize everything? Leave it in the realm of private devotion from whence it sprang. Private apparitions and locutions do not rule the church, thank God. You can’t swing a cat without hitting a visionary or locutionist these days. It sounds like self deception mostly, people using apparitions as alleged divine mouthpieces for the will of God when it’s really their own opinion and will.

  • Kentucky Liz

    Lumen Gentium VIII 62 calls her Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix. I don’t even know what the middle two mean. How is that not enough? Do you wish to anathematize and condemn those Christians who can’t bring themselves to call her Co Redemptrix? Why the need to dogmatize it?

  • Kentucky Liz

    I don’t believe in Amsterdam, so don’t dogmatize those ideas and force all Christians to believe in it or be anathematized and condemned. It’s a private revelation, leave it in private devotion. The Lady of All Nations stuff doesn’t pass muster with me. “Who once was Mary”–Mary has never lost her name. If she did, our rosaries would be pointless. Amsterdam offends my sensus fidelium.

  • Kentucky Liz

    I agree with everything you wrote except for the claim that she should be called Co Redemptrix and that it should be a dogma of the Church.

  • Kentucky Liz

    If this doctrine already exists, then it doesn’t need to be defined as dogma. Why anathematize and condemn all Christians who don’t accept it?

  • Kentucky Liz

    And Advocate. And Adjutrix and Auxiliatrix, whatever those mean.

  • Kentucky Liz

    Let her win hearts to her heart through love and tenderness, not dogma. No one could ever win my love through an authoritative pronouncement by a pope or council of bishops.

  • Kentucky Liz

    Hearts triumph through love, not dogma. Thank you for posting Cardinal Ratzinger’s comments on this. He is a theologian that can be trusted. He loves the Blessed Mother as much as anyone, but did not use his papal office to issue this bull.

  • Kentucky Liz

    Even if she is addressed in those terms by force? That’s what a dogma does. It forces people to call her that even if they don’t believe in it. There is no universal consensus of the bishops or the lay faithful on this. Not all of us believe in private revelations but their promoters want to dogmatize their seers’ crazy notions.

  • Kentucky Liz

    So those Christians who go directly to Jesus are bound for hell? I believe the words Jesus spoke during his lifetime, not some private revelation. A lot of the modern messages of recent years sound like the seers’ own axes to grind.

  • Kentucky Liz

    Mediatrix has already been declared and explained in Lumen Gentium VIII 62. They also call her Advocate, Auxiliatrix, and Adjutrix. I don’t know what the last two mean. Lumen Gentium is a dogmatic constitution of an ecumenical council, so it’s infallible. So pray about Mediatrix. (And I am going to study on Auxiliatrix and Adjutrix.) But the council did not call her Co Redepemptrix, and they were not careless with the documents. The worlds’ bishops and theologians worked on this, and it was the largest council in history. I think they knew what they were doing.

  • Kentucky Liz

    The shouting in all caps make it sound like you’re quoting some crackpot visionary, of which there is an abundance nowadays.

  • Kentucky Liz

    I don’t stake my faith on apparitions and don’t want their messages to be dogmatized and shoved down my throat. I believe the Bible and the church’s faith and practice through time says quite enough.

  • Kentucky Liz

    Making it a dogma is like shoving a gourmet meal down your throat by force, then. To follow your analogy. I like gourmet meals, but not force feeding.

  • Kentucky Liz

    I don’t have any issues with the dogmas we have already. I also think the Church shouldn’t turn into a dogma factory and keep churning out more. Don’t we have enough? Why the need for this dogma? I don’t see it.

  • Kentucky Liz

    I agree with everything you wrote, Lisa, but that doesn’t persuade me of the necessity of this dogma. No papal bull is necessary to force me to love the Blessed Mother, and no papal bull can stop me from loving her.

  • Kentucky Liz

    We don’t need this dogma to stop engaging in what you consider false ecumenism. I know the Protestants won’t accept it, but neither will the Orthodox, nor many Catholics.

  • Kentucky Liz

    Pope Francis is very St Francis in his approach. St Francis sought to inspire love, not promulgations of dogma. He invented the crèche (nativity) scenes for Christmas, and it touches hearts. Promulgations of new dogmas are not as effective. You can’t force someone to love you.

  • Kentucky Liz

    Leave it to the realm of private devotion. It sprang from private revelation. It is not the universal belief of the church from the beginning. The Vatican is not working on this dogma. Followers of alleged visionaries are.

  • Kentucky Liz

    I think he accomplishes the same result (as the promulgation of the dogma) by promoting the Undoer of Knots image and devotion, which is straight out of the writings of the apostolic fathers. That has more weight with me. Pope Francis says it’s his favorite Marian devotion.

  • Marty Dancy

    Ok, but to me, false ecumenism is a threat. It means watering down things that I refuse to water down or being forced by clergy to take on things that I cannot stand. I believe that denominations were formed by people who could not accept certain religious practices and having a choice to go somewhere else to follow their consciences was better than keeping a turmoil going between the old believers and the new believers. Religion is too emotional to people to have certain overseers force people to change when they do not want to change certain things. I thought that this doctrine would help push the ecumeniacs away and that would free us to persue our faith without interference from people who believe differently from us. However, if our church can be kept free from false ecumenism without proclaiming this doctrine, that would be OK, too. The Orthodox and the eastern rites did not have to have a Vatican II and I resent the fact that the Latin RIte did have it. All the dissenters seem to be in the Latin Rite which I resent.

  • pete salveinini

    My skills and computer screen leave me with the option of emphasizing things only by capitalization. Sorry. However, an objective viewer would disregard the style for the content.

  • Eliz33

    Yes and Yes!

    She is our help and our refuge. She is our tender mother. She is the one who shows us how to love Jesus. She brings us to Him. Jesus gave us to her and her to us. How sweet a mother, how beautiful! May all souls comes to know her compassionate and Immaculate Heart!

    Holy Mary, Mother of God and Our Mother, pray for us!

  • Gallibus

    I will pray for you that the Lord will find a way to reach you. I am sure He will – He loves you. Consider also that the Holy Scriptures are full of ‘private revelations’; God is not known to hold Conferences. He selects and sends a messenger. The Scriptures record the world’s response – generally His messengers were killed. Think also of Noah’s contemporaries – they had the same issue you seem to be battling with.

  • Gallibus

    Nobody can force you to believe something. You can pretend! Not even God forces you since He gave you free will to accept Him or reject Him. You don’t even have to be a Catholic. Even though we pray ‘Thy will be done’ we don’t really mean it; we really mean ‘ … only if it agrees with my will’. True guidance and true revelation can be refused; the choice is yours as well as the results. We don’t have to believe in gravity either but we will not escape its effects generally. We so often hear of God’s graciousness; it would be nice to reciprocate by considering His wishes for a change.

  • Gallibus

    Yes, so many want to define their own version of truth – it is normal – picking and choosing those truths that we can be comfortable with. What is so bad about recognizing Our Mother’s role in Redemption – is it a case of spiritual jealousy? We are all called to participate in the redemption of souls by praying for them and sacrificing for them. This is love – ‘not in the flesh but in sacrifice’. Only those who stubbornly refuse to eat would be considered for force feeding, viz. those who don’t know what is good for them. Jesus’ Church was given the mandate to teach us the truth under the guidance of the Holy Spirit who will be the stumbling block for many in our days bringing many to their ruin, just as many stumbled over Jesus in His day.
    Pride is what makes us choke on God’s good truth.

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qswm7lHp7oY Seeker8

    When Jacinta was asked what the most important request at Fatima was, she replied:
    “Our Lord wishes for His Heart to be venerated alongside that of his Mother.”
    (source: Jacinta of Fatima/Tan)

  • blessedx4inTX

    http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php

    This helps to explain the actual meaning of co-redemptrix and addresses most common objections to the possibility of a 5th Marian Doctrine. God’s Blessings and Peace to you all~

  • Lumen Gentleman

    It is already a doctrine – the question is whether it should be dogmatic. The Marian dogmas are expressions of Christology or logical extensions, but all point back to Our Lord. How is it necessary to clarify a point of Who Jesus IS to have this doctrine codified as dogmatic?

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