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	<title>Comments on: The Practice of Patriotism</title>
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		<title>By: noelfitz</title>
		<link>http://catholicexchange.com/2009/07/09/114731/comment-page-1/#comment-41107</link>
		<dc:creator>noelfitz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 04:06:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catholicexchange.com/?p=114731#comment-41107</guid>
		<description>As usual, Mark, a brilliant article.

You wrote:
&quot;The fundamental thing to learn is gratitude to God, who put us where we are and called us to love where we are.&quot;

Thus us  powerful stuff and so true.

However &quot;My country - right or wrong&quot; may not be true patriotism.  Also claiming people from one part of a country and one set of views are patriotic and those who disagree are not is not true patriotism.  In a democracy to blindly follow the leader is not true love of country.

Patriotism may lead to worship of the State.  There are problems.

It is not for nothing that Samuel Johnson claimed &quot;Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel&quot;. However, Boswell, Johnson&#039;s biographer, assures us that Johnson was not indicting patriotism in general, only false patriotism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As usual, Mark, a brilliant article.</p>
<p>You wrote:<br />
&#8220;The fundamental thing to learn is gratitude to God, who put us where we are and called us to love where we are.&#8221;</p>
<p>Thus us  powerful stuff and so true.</p>
<p>However &#8220;My country &#8211; right or wrong&#8221; may not be true patriotism.  Also claiming people from one part of a country and one set of views are patriotic and those who disagree are not is not true patriotism.  In a democracy to blindly follow the leader is not true love of country.</p>
<p>Patriotism may lead to worship of the State.  There are problems.</p>
<p>It is not for nothing that Samuel Johnson claimed &#8220;Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel&#8221;. However, Boswell, Johnson&#8217;s biographer, assures us that Johnson was not indicting patriotism in general, only false patriotism.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Struble</title>
		<link>http://catholicexchange.com/2009/07/09/114731/comment-page-1/#comment-41101</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Struble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:24:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catholicexchange.com/?p=114731#comment-41101</guid>
		<description>Oops.  The Calhoun quote should read: &quot;protection and patriotism ARE reciprocal.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops.  The Calhoun quote should read: &#8220;protection and patriotism ARE reciprocal.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Arkanabar Ilarsadin</title>
		<link>http://catholicexchange.com/2009/07/09/114731/comment-page-1/#comment-41099</link>
		<dc:creator>Arkanabar Ilarsadin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 20:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catholicexchange.com/?p=114731#comment-41099</guid>
		<description>Bob,
Having read much of this when it was posted on www.mark-shea.com I can assure you that you and Mark have much the same understanding of love, no matter the object:  to sincerely desire and work to provide for the beloved the greatest good you are able.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob,<br />
Having read much of this when it was posted on <a href="http://www.mark-shea.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.mark-shea.com</a> I can assure you that you and Mark have much the same understanding of love, no matter the object:  to sincerely desire and work to provide for the beloved the greatest good you are able.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Struble</title>
		<link>http://catholicexchange.com/2009/07/09/114731/comment-page-1/#comment-41098</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Struble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 20:40:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catholicexchange.com/?p=114731#comment-41098</guid>
		<description>Mark,
As usual, Chesterton hit the nail on the head.  I&#039;m looking forward to the rest of your series.  Maybe you’ll have time to address Congressman, John Calhoun&#039;s observation in 1811, that &quot;protection and patriotism and reciprocal.&quot;

Better than Calhoun, in my opinion, is William Blackstone&#039;s &quot;protection and subjection are reciprocal.&quot;  As noted in the Declaration of Independence, when the government of Great Britain removed us from its protection, we were in turn released from the duty of allegiance to the Mother Country.  

I think it is safe to say that in 1776 the Patriots gave up on being patriotic Englishmen.  Our forefathers and foremothers transferred their feelings of civic affection to another entity, i.e. the new USA.  

Likewise today, or rather worse than anything perpetrated by George III, the government does little or nothing to protect us from a host of moral dangers.  Indeed it aids and abets in inflicting abortion, sodomy, warmongering, and irreligion upon us and upon our children.  In such a circumstance the issue of what patriotism means is called into question.

For these reasons I do appreciate that your column raises such a timely topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,<br />
As usual, Chesterton hit the nail on the head.  I&#8217;m looking forward to the rest of your series.  Maybe you’ll have time to address Congressman, John Calhoun&#8217;s observation in 1811, that &#8220;protection and patriotism and reciprocal.&#8221;</p>
<p>Better than Calhoun, in my opinion, is William Blackstone&#8217;s &#8220;protection and subjection are reciprocal.&#8221;  As noted in the Declaration of Independence, when the government of Great Britain removed us from its protection, we were in turn released from the duty of allegiance to the Mother Country.  </p>
<p>I think it is safe to say that in 1776 the Patriots gave up on being patriotic Englishmen.  Our forefathers and foremothers transferred their feelings of civic affection to another entity, i.e. the new USA.  </p>
<p>Likewise today, or rather worse than anything perpetrated by George III, the government does little or nothing to protect us from a host of moral dangers.  Indeed it aids and abets in inflicting abortion, sodomy, warmongering, and irreligion upon us and upon our children.  In such a circumstance the issue of what patriotism means is called into question.</p>
<p>For these reasons I do appreciate that your column raises such a timely topic.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Shea</title>
		<link>http://catholicexchange.com/2009/07/09/114731/comment-page-1/#comment-41095</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Shea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 18:56:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catholicexchange.com/?p=114731#comment-41095</guid>
		<description>Bob:

Since nothing I said had anything to do with &quot;super-patriotism&quot; or unquestioning jingoism or turning a blind eye to evil, I&#039;m not sure what you are driving at.

I would suggest you wait for me to finish the series before you immediately assume my point is &quot;My country, right or wrong!&quot;  In fact, I agree with Chesterton who says that saying is as foolish as &quot;My mother, drunk or sober!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bob:</p>
<p>Since nothing I said had anything to do with &#8220;super-patriotism&#8221; or unquestioning jingoism or turning a blind eye to evil, I&#8217;m not sure what you are driving at.</p>
<p>I would suggest you wait for me to finish the series before you immediately assume my point is &#8220;My country, right or wrong!&#8221;  In fact, I agree with Chesterton who says that saying is as foolish as &#8220;My mother, drunk or sober!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Struble</title>
		<link>http://catholicexchange.com/2009/07/09/114731/comment-page-1/#comment-41094</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Struble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catholicexchange.com/?p=114731#comment-41094</guid>
		<description>My idea in quoting Douglass was not for slavery per se, but to consider his ...&quot;but my rapture is soon checked when I remember....&quot;  I think we could get into quite a discussion with Mark Shea on his definition of love for country.  Jesus said, &quot;greater love hath no man to give his life for his friends.&quot;  Notice he does not say anything about rapture, or warm and fuzzy feelings, or hugs, or in fact anything emotional.

I think a citizen who works to change his/her country for the better exhibits more worthwhile patriotism than the flag waving, bumper sticker, &quot;God bless America&quot; superpatriot.  

In reality a Christian today has good reason to feel repugnance when he looks at the country&#039;s apostate condition, especially when he or she has lived here long enough to contrast the USA today with America Beautiful as she existed prior to the postmodernist era.  I would date transmutation of the United States from God&#039;s friend to His foe from about the time of the assassination of JFK.

To effect a turnabout, i.e. to put the country back into allegiance with God, is the high calling of genuine patriotism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My idea in quoting Douglass was not for slavery per se, but to consider his &#8230;&#8221;but my rapture is soon checked when I remember&#8230;.&#8221;  I think we could get into quite a discussion with Mark Shea on his definition of love for country.  Jesus said, &#8220;greater love hath no man to give his life for his friends.&#8221;  Notice he does not say anything about rapture, or warm and fuzzy feelings, or hugs, or in fact anything emotional.</p>
<p>I think a citizen who works to change his/her country for the better exhibits more worthwhile patriotism than the flag waving, bumper sticker, &#8220;God bless America&#8221; superpatriot.  </p>
<p>In reality a Christian today has good reason to feel repugnance when he looks at the country&#8217;s apostate condition, especially when he or she has lived here long enough to contrast the USA today with America Beautiful as she existed prior to the postmodernist era.  I would date transmutation of the United States from God&#8217;s friend to His foe from about the time of the assassination of JFK.</p>
<p>To effect a turnabout, i.e. to put the country back into allegiance with God, is the high calling of genuine patriotism.</p>
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		<title>By: mamamull</title>
		<link>http://catholicexchange.com/2009/07/09/114731/comment-page-1/#comment-41091</link>
		<dc:creator>mamamull</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 16:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catholicexchange.com/?p=114731#comment-41091</guid>
		<description>Get over it - he didn&#039;t list slavery - it is one our country&#039;s sins. We don&#039;t always have to write to include every sin of our nation - it would take too long. 

Do you think that the late and eloquent Mr. Douglass would not have something to say of his fellow men if he were to see how welfare has been allowed to ruin the connections of the black families more than slavery even hoped to have done. Do you think he would&#039;t be outraged at the number of chldren concieved out of wedlock - 80% or something like that. How abortion has killed more black children than there were slaves? 

I have adopted sons that multi-ethnic - I check the other box on race questions and write in Human. For that is how I see things - we are humans and we don&#039;t look the same.  I don&#039;t  worry about it - I want to speak more languages. 

But hey, our nation has a lot of sins - so do each of us. I don&#039;t want to list my online, though. 

D</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Get over it &#8211; he didn&#8217;t list slavery &#8211; it is one our country&#8217;s sins. We don&#8217;t always have to write to include every sin of our nation &#8211; it would take too long. </p>
<p>Do you think that the late and eloquent Mr. Douglass would not have something to say of his fellow men if he were to see how welfare has been allowed to ruin the connections of the black families more than slavery even hoped to have done. Do you think he would&#8217;t be outraged at the number of chldren concieved out of wedlock &#8211; 80% or something like that. How abortion has killed more black children than there were slaves? </p>
<p>I have adopted sons that multi-ethnic &#8211; I check the other box on race questions and write in Human. For that is how I see things &#8211; we are humans and we don&#8217;t look the same.  I don&#8217;t  worry about it &#8211; I want to speak more languages. </p>
<p>But hey, our nation has a lot of sins &#8211; so do each of us. I don&#8217;t want to list my online, though. </p>
<p>D</p>
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		<title>By: mamamull</title>
		<link>http://catholicexchange.com/2009/07/09/114731/comment-page-1/#comment-41089</link>
		<dc:creator>mamamull</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 16:04:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catholicexchange.com/?p=114731#comment-41089</guid>
		<description>OK so slavery wasn&#039;t posted. It wan an abomination - so is the wholesale slaughter of unborn babies. Welfare is also the scourge that damaged the African-American families more than slavery ever did. Frederick Douglass would have something to say about the refusal of the black man to be a responsible father and husband. He no doubt would have something to say about the huge number of black children being conceieved out of wedlock - 80% or more. 

I am not a racist - I have adopted love two boys that are not the same skin tone as me. I sign most forms for race By checking &quot;other&quot; and then writing in human. 

Many educational forms won&#039;t let me list the mulitple ethnicities of my sons on their forms and that is what started by  HUMAN campaign. 

Nit picking has it&#039;s purpose - just go with the examples sometimes. We don&#039;t all have to write like the late, great, JPII.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK so slavery wasn&#8217;t posted. It wan an abomination &#8211; so is the wholesale slaughter of unborn babies. Welfare is also the scourge that damaged the African-American families more than slavery ever did. Frederick Douglass would have something to say about the refusal of the black man to be a responsible father and husband. He no doubt would have something to say about the huge number of black children being conceieved out of wedlock &#8211; 80% or more. </p>
<p>I am not a racist &#8211; I have adopted love two boys that are not the same skin tone as me. I sign most forms for race By checking &#8220;other&#8221; and then writing in human. </p>
<p>Many educational forms won&#8217;t let me list the mulitple ethnicities of my sons on their forms and that is what started by  HUMAN campaign. </p>
<p>Nit picking has it&#8217;s purpose &#8211; just go with the examples sometimes. We don&#8217;t all have to write like the late, great, JPII.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Struble</title>
		<link>http://catholicexchange.com/2009/07/09/114731/comment-page-1/#comment-41071</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Struble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 05:49:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catholicexchange.com/?p=114731#comment-41071</guid>
		<description>Mark,
A very thought provoking theme.  I wonder, however, how you would answer Frederick Douglass, the abolitionist:

 “In thinking of America I sometimes find myself admiring her bright blue sky, her grand old woods, her fertile fields, her beautiful rivers, her mighty lakes and star crowned mountains.  But my rapture is soon checked when I remember that all is cursed with the infernal spirit of slaveholding and wrong, when I remember that with the waters of her noblest rivers the tears of my brethren are born to the ocean disregarded and forgotten, that her most fertile fields drink daily of the warm blood of my outraged sisters….”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark,<br />
A very thought provoking theme.  I wonder, however, how you would answer Frederick Douglass, the abolitionist:</p>
<p> “In thinking of America I sometimes find myself admiring her bright blue sky, her grand old woods, her fertile fields, her beautiful rivers, her mighty lakes and star crowned mountains.  But my rapture is soon checked when I remember that all is cursed with the infernal spirit of slaveholding and wrong, when I remember that with the waters of her noblest rivers the tears of my brethren are born to the ocean disregarded and forgotten, that her most fertile fields drink daily of the warm blood of my outraged sisters….”</p>
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