I fully, completely and unequivocally agree. That is why I say in fundamentals we are fully in agreement. The Decalogue is very cleat – “Thou shalt not kill”.

St Augustine was thinking about the rights of the unborn, which still causes problems.

Today I was at the funeral Mass of a Protestant neighbor in our Church. It was very moving. The priest welcomed her remains into the parish Church (building) last night, saying that in baptism she died with Christ. Today the local Protestant pastor read the gospel at the requiem Mass and the prayers over the coffin.

I think debate is important. I wish to see more here. I note that the last three posts in the CE round-table, “Faith and Life” were by me (June 21, June 14 and June 13).

We lost many of our old friends and contributors when the site was being upgraded. I would love to see more contributors as I find CE a wonderful encouragement in the Faith. Could you encourage more to share in this round-table?

The Church is not going to give a Christian burial to my Baptist neighbor, but that does not mean that I can extrapolate from that that she is not a human being, has no rights that must be respected, and that I am morally free to kill her.

The issue actually is very simple. Procuring an abortion, intentionally killing the unborn, is murder and is an intrinsic evil. That is the very clear teaching of the Church.

The issue of the rights of the unborn are not simple.
I quoted St Augustine, his remarks correspond to the aborted and miscarried children.

The original debate was raised by Senator DeMint. “When I asked [Sotomayor] if an unborn child has any rights whatsoever,” says DeMint, “I was surprised that she said she had never thought about it.” Frustrated, incredulous, DeMint added: “This is not just a question about abortion, but about respect due to human life at all stages.”

Mary,

I am grateful to you. As you know we are both in essential agreement as Catholics.

I am always surprised at how few references to abortion occur in the early Church.

The Bible makes no reference and the only ones in the Apostolic Fathers are:
Didache 2:2
“You shall not murder; you shall not commit adultery”; you shall not corrupt boys; you shall not be sexually promiscuous; “you shall not steal”; you shall not practice magic; you shall not engage in sorcery; you shall not abort a child or commit infanticide.(This essentially agrees with what you gave).

Epistle of Barnabas, 19:5 (part)
“You shall not take the Lord’s name in vain.” You shall love your neighbor more than your own life. You shall not abort a child nor, again, commit infanticide.

The Catholic Church has not always given a Christian burial to all unborn children.

If this isn’t what you’re suggesting, plainly say what you are trying to suggest. If it is, I’d like to know why you believe these things.

Thank you also to Ms. Kochan for the clarification on noelfitz’s quotes. It provides a caution to seizing upon (without additional research) any quote that seems to bolster one’s opinion – no matter on which side of the discussion you are.

I think it’s also worth pointing out that the Catholic Church, a great friend of science, is certainly capable of advancing beyond the understanding of the unborn child that existed during the time of the Church Fathers. Unlike them, we can actually witness the moment of conception and see the child in all stages of development. I’ve never heard anyone give a logical alternate explanation of when human life begins, besides at moment of sperm meeting egg.

Even today, the medical term for miscarriage is “spontaneous abortion” and abortions that are caused by human intervention are called “procured abortions” to distinguish then from natural accidents.

Here is a quotation from a Medical dictionary:

Abortion: In medicine, an abortion is the premature exit of the products of conception (the fetus, fetal membranes, and placenta) from the uterus. It is the loss of a pregnancy and does not refer to why that pregnancy was lost. A spontaneous abortion is the same as a miscarriage.

Augustine believed with the entire Church what the Didache (c. AD70) said:

The Lord’s Teaching to the Heathen by the Twelve Apostles:

1 There are two ways, one of life and one of death; and between the two ways there is a great difference.

2 Now, this is the way of life:…

The second commandment of the Teaching: “Do not murder; do not commit adultery”; do not corrupt boys; do not fornicate; “do not steal”; do not practice magic; do not go in for sorcery; do not murder a child by abortion or kill a newborn infant. “Do not covet your neighbor’s property; do not commit perjury; do not bear false witness”; do not slander; do not bear grudges. Do not be double-minded or double-tongued, for a double tongue is “a deadly snare.” Your words shall not be dishonest or hollow, but substantiated by action. Do not be greedy or extortionate or hypocritical or malicious or arrogant. Do not plot against your neighbor. Do not hate anybody; but reprove some, pray for others, and still others love more than your own life.

Nothing ambiguous about that.

I read:
“Personally, I fear, sadly, that Sotomayor’s claim of ignorance on this basic question of human life is possibly all too true…

If Sonia Sotomayor never thought about the rights of the unborn in all her years as a Roman Catholic, then the Church itself must accept much of the blame.”

Is it an attack on the Church for its many failures?

It seems as if one who has strayed from the faith is attacking one who has held on to Catholicism throughout her life..

St Augustine seems to have concerns, similar to Ms Sotomayor, about the unborn and its rights. In fact Church teaching is not clear.

I read:

Augustine
The City of God, bk 22, ch 12
For if there is to be equality, where shall those abortions, supposing that they rise again, get that bulk which they had not here? Or if they shall not rise because they were not born but cast out, they raise the same question about children who have died in childhood, asking us whence they get the stature which we see they had not here; for we will not say that those who have been not only born, but born again, shall not rise again.

Augustine
The City of God, bk 22, ch 13
That abortions, which, even supposing they were alive in the womb, did also die there, shall rise again, I make bold neither to affirm nor to deny, although I fail to see why, if they are not excluded from the number of the dead, they should not attain to the resurrection of the dead. For either all the dead shall not rise, and there will be to all eternity some souls without bodies though they once had them, – only in their mother’s womb, indeed; or, if all human souls shall receive again the bodies which they had wherever they lived, and which they left when they died, then I do not see how I can say that even those who died in their mother’s womb shall have no resurrection. But whichever of these opinions any one may adopt concerning them, we must at least apply to them, if they rise again, all that we have to say of infants who have been born.

Augustine
Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, ch 85
So in the first place arises a question about abortive conceptions, which have indeed been born in the mother’s womb, but not so born that they could be born again. For if we shall decide that these are to rise again, we cannot object to any conclusion that may be drawn in regard to those which are fully formed. Now who is there that is not rather disposed to think that unformed abortions perish, like seeds that have never fructified?

However, I find that this administration just does not pass the ‘sniff’ test about honesty over mendacity. She is more or less coming out of this administration. I don’t trust her just for that, let alone that she claims that she is somehow more intelligent and honorable than I am, for her Latin background versus my Indo-European-based Caucasian background.