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	<title>Comments on: Forcing a Pro-Choice Crisis: What About Third Trimester Abortions?</title>
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		<title>By: rooforlife</title>
		<link>http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/10/119365/comment-page-1/#comment-40496</link>
		<dc:creator>rooforlife</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 01:39:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/09/119365/#comment-40496</guid>
		<description>Carhart does abortions in NE. I found the NE Abortion Report for 2008, 2,702 abortions-Length of Gestation* (in weeks) was not reported, so we dont know how old those 2,702 preborn babies were when they were killed. According to what I found Caharts abortion center is in Sarpy County where 1,949 were done in 2008. link to 2008 Nebraska Report on Abortions in 2008: http://www.hhs.state.ne.us/srd/ABORTION2008RPT.PDF
To find other years I did a search on Statistical Report of Abortions http://www.nebraska.gov/search/search.cgi
SO how can the government or the Guttermacher Institute, say exactly or even close to how many later term abortions are being done if the gestional ages arent being reported? For all we know just in NE 2008, those 2702 abortions could have been late term abortions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carhart does abortions in NE. I found the NE Abortion Report for 2008, 2,702 abortions-Length of Gestation* (in weeks) was not reported, so we dont know how old those 2,702 preborn babies were when they were killed. According to what I found Caharts abortion center is in Sarpy County where 1,949 were done in 2008. link to 2008 Nebraska Report on Abortions in 2008: <a href="http://www.hhs.state.ne.us/srd/ABORTION2008RPT.PDF" rel="nofollow">http://www.hhs.state.ne.us/srd/ABORTION2008RPT.PDF</a><br />
To find other years I did a search on Statistical Report of Abortions <a href="http://www.nebraska.gov/search/search.cgi" rel="nofollow">http://www.nebraska.gov/search/search.cgi</a><br />
SO how can the government or the Guttermacher Institute, say exactly or even close to how many later term abortions are being done if the gestional ages arent being reported? For all we know just in NE 2008, those 2702 abortions could have been late term abortions.</p>
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		<title>By: Terri Kimmel</title>
		<link>http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/10/119365/comment-page-1/#comment-40451</link>
		<dc:creator>Terri Kimmel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:32:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/09/119365/#comment-40451</guid>
		<description>jcdives,

I recently wrote a column published on this site called &quot;I Was a Pregnant College Student&quot;.  You can find it by using the site&#039;s search engine.  Reading that column might give you some idea of the complexity involved in answering your question.

God bless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jcdives,</p>
<p>I recently wrote a column published on this site called &#8220;I Was a Pregnant College Student&#8221;.  You can find it by using the site&#8217;s search engine.  Reading that column might give you some idea of the complexity involved in answering your question.</p>
<p>God bless.</p>
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		<title>By: Terri Kimmel</title>
		<link>http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/10/119365/comment-page-1/#comment-40450</link>
		<dc:creator>Terri Kimmel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/09/119365/#comment-40450</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve wrangled this misunderstanding before.  (Thank you for your eloquent clarifications, Denise.)  One can reach out with compassion without compromising the principle of the personhood of the unborn child.  I think it is somehow difficult for some people to wrap their minds around that concept.  The last time I approached this subject in my local pro-life community, people were yelling at me (via email, of course) that abortion is always wrong, etc.  Naturally.  I know this.  It is a given.  I think every abortion is a grave evil, but loud condemnation by itself is not a comprehesive cure to the problem.  It&#039;s going to take more than that.  We have to be willing to eat with prostitues and tax collectors.

I too stand at the abortion mill regularly with a sign and a rosary.  I stand there as witness to the holocaust, recognizing that I actually do very little in hopes of saving the children scheduled to be slaughtered that day.  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.  Too much water has gone under the bridge by the time a mother reaches the mill.  In almost all cases, she&#039;s too resolved to be swayed at that point.

I don&#039;t think the theater analogy is very useful within the context of this discussion.  I will never physically jump the abortionist as he arrives at the mill.  I don&#039;t think it&#039;s an appropriate approach.  I wouldn&#039;t hesitate in the theater, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve wrangled this misunderstanding before.  (Thank you for your eloquent clarifications, Denise.)  One can reach out with compassion without compromising the principle of the personhood of the unborn child.  I think it is somehow difficult for some people to wrap their minds around that concept.  The last time I approached this subject in my local pro-life community, people were yelling at me (via email, of course) that abortion is always wrong, etc.  Naturally.  I know this.  It is a given.  I think every abortion is a grave evil, but loud condemnation by itself is not a comprehesive cure to the problem.  It&#8217;s going to take more than that.  We have to be willing to eat with prostitues and tax collectors.</p>
<p>I too stand at the abortion mill regularly with a sign and a rosary.  I stand there as witness to the holocaust, recognizing that I actually do very little in hopes of saving the children scheduled to be slaughtered that day.  An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.  Too much water has gone under the bridge by the time a mother reaches the mill.  In almost all cases, she&#8217;s too resolved to be swayed at that point.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think the theater analogy is very useful within the context of this discussion.  I will never physically jump the abortionist as he arrives at the mill.  I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s an appropriate approach.  I wouldn&#8217;t hesitate in the theater, though.</p>
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		<title>By: DonnaMaria</title>
		<link>http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/10/119365/comment-page-1/#comment-40449</link>
		<dc:creator>DonnaMaria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:53:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/09/119365/#comment-40449</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s really crazy is that an under-18 girl can have an abortion, but she can&#039;t have her teeth cleaned, or even use a tanning bed in some cases without parental consent.  We need to reach people where they are.  From a medical standpoint, proper procedure is not being carried out:  informed consent, and when the patient is under 18, informed consent of a legal guardian as well.  The point being made, I think, is that we have to start with the things that are obvious to 99% of the people out there, make those changes, and keep on going.  Things aren&#039;t going to change overnight, but outlawing late-term abortion, requiring proper informed consent (with all the possible adverse affects of abortion gone over thoroughly) would be a great start.  It would certainly make people think.  Most people don&#039;t believe those things are happening, or procedure is being breached.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s really crazy is that an under-18 girl can have an abortion, but she can&#8217;t have her teeth cleaned, or even use a tanning bed in some cases without parental consent.  We need to reach people where they are.  From a medical standpoint, proper procedure is not being carried out:  informed consent, and when the patient is under 18, informed consent of a legal guardian as well.  The point being made, I think, is that we have to start with the things that are obvious to 99% of the people out there, make those changes, and keep on going.  Things aren&#8217;t going to change overnight, but outlawing late-term abortion, requiring proper informed consent (with all the possible adverse affects of abortion gone over thoroughly) would be a great start.  It would certainly make people think.  Most people don&#8217;t believe those things are happening, or procedure is being breached.</p>
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		<title>By: Tarheel</title>
		<link>http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/10/119365/comment-page-1/#comment-40448</link>
		<dc:creator>Tarheel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/09/119365/#comment-40448</guid>
		<description>Wonderful article.  Father Pavone&#039;s articles, speeches on his website and EWTN are always informative and make you feel good about being pro-life.

It has always stricken me as odd that we live in a country where a young woman can go into an abortion clinic, pay a fee and have her child killed.  But this same young woman if she went out and paid someone to kill her boyfriend or husband she would be arrested for contracting someone to commit a crime.  So is it any different when she paid the fee to the abortion doctor to kill the child she is carrying?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonderful article.  Father Pavone&#8217;s articles, speeches on his website and EWTN are always informative and make you feel good about being pro-life.</p>
<p>It has always stricken me as odd that we live in a country where a young woman can go into an abortion clinic, pay a fee and have her child killed.  But this same young woman if she went out and paid someone to kill her boyfriend or husband she would be arrested for contracting someone to commit a crime.  So is it any different when she paid the fee to the abortion doctor to kill the child she is carrying?</p>
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		<title>By: dkpalaska</title>
		<link>http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/10/119365/comment-page-1/#comment-40447</link>
		<dc:creator>dkpalaska</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:10:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/09/119365/#comment-40447</guid>
		<description>Hello, Jim,

My issue with your theatre example is that it is not exactly equivalent to the abortion situation. Unlike in the theatre, the person being killed is 1.) not obvious to the entire community as actually being a person (ridiculous, but accurate); 2.) the death is legally sanctioned; 3.) there is not one, but multiple murderers. Yes, I would stop the murders at all costs in your hypothetical example, but if you equate it with worldwide abortion today, I would also face an uprising on the part of the majority of the theatre-goers, be silenced and rendered ineffective, others who feel as I do would be demonized and those who are &quot;on the fence&quot; would be even less likely to listen to reason and scientific evidence. And then the killing would go on, even more unimpeded.

The theatre deaths only stop permanently when we incite the majority of the theatre-goers to all rise up against the killers. 

In answer to your final question, for me, the personhood of the preborn baby is driven home when you start with the most obvious discrepancies in pro-choice (or cafeteria Catholic) &quot;reasoning&quot;. In Fr. Pavone&#039;s words: 

&quot;When people are astonished by these facts, as they will be, they are forced to re-evaluate just how much priority “privacy” and “choice” have over life. If they are “pro-choice,” they are forced to figure out when in pregnancy the line is drawn — and why.

And now you’re talking.&quot;

However, there is room and need for all in the Church and her battles: martyrs and discoursers. Christ set the example for both, and called us each according to our gifts to fight for life. 

I feel like we are standing under the same tree, but somehow not holding hands around the trunk, if you will...

In Christ&#039;s love,
Denise</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello, Jim,</p>
<p>My issue with your theatre example is that it is not exactly equivalent to the abortion situation. Unlike in the theatre, the person being killed is 1.) not obvious to the entire community as actually being a person (ridiculous, but accurate); 2.) the death is legally sanctioned; 3.) there is not one, but multiple murderers. Yes, I would stop the murders at all costs in your hypothetical example, but if you equate it with worldwide abortion today, I would also face an uprising on the part of the majority of the theatre-goers, be silenced and rendered ineffective, others who feel as I do would be demonized and those who are &#8220;on the fence&#8221; would be even less likely to listen to reason and scientific evidence. And then the killing would go on, even more unimpeded.</p>
<p>The theatre deaths only stop permanently when we incite the majority of the theatre-goers to all rise up against the killers. </p>
<p>In answer to your final question, for me, the personhood of the preborn baby is driven home when you start with the most obvious discrepancies in pro-choice (or cafeteria Catholic) &#8220;reasoning&#8221;. In Fr. Pavone&#8217;s words: </p>
<p>&#8220;When people are astonished by these facts, as they will be, they are forced to re-evaluate just how much priority “privacy” and “choice” have over life. If they are “pro-choice,” they are forced to figure out when in pregnancy the line is drawn — and why.</p>
<p>And now you’re talking.&#8221;</p>
<p>However, there is room and need for all in the Church and her battles: martyrs and discoursers. Christ set the example for both, and called us each according to our gifts to fight for life. </p>
<p>I feel like we are standing under the same tree, but somehow not holding hands around the trunk, if you will&#8230;</p>
<p>In Christ&#8217;s love,<br />
Denise</p>
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		<title>By: Jim McFillin</title>
		<link>http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/10/119365/comment-page-1/#comment-40446</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim McFillin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:05:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/09/119365/#comment-40446</guid>
		<description>Les/ DKPalaska,

Confrontation is not the issue at all. It&#039;s Personhood for the preborn baby.

I think real change will come when pro-life people actually (in their gut) believe a real live person is being killed, and sense the urgency to do something about it. What were your answers to the guy killing a person every 25 seconds. What would you do? You would stop them, of course. But there are many folks who say they are pro-life, and don&#039;t vote for pro-life candidates. 

So, I certainly agree that we must be compassionate in our discussions, but it&#039;s 35 years and counting. A real person is being killed every 25 seconds.

How do we emphasize the personhood of the preborn baby? 

Jim McFillin
Great Mills, MD</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Les/ DKPalaska,</p>
<p>Confrontation is not the issue at all. It&#8217;s Personhood for the preborn baby.</p>
<p>I think real change will come when pro-life people actually (in their gut) believe a real live person is being killed, and sense the urgency to do something about it. What were your answers to the guy killing a person every 25 seconds. What would you do? You would stop them, of course. But there are many folks who say they are pro-life, and don&#8217;t vote for pro-life candidates. </p>
<p>So, I certainly agree that we must be compassionate in our discussions, but it&#8217;s 35 years and counting. A real person is being killed every 25 seconds.</p>
<p>How do we emphasize the personhood of the preborn baby? </p>
<p>Jim McFillin<br />
Great Mills, MD</p>
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		<title>By: Les</title>
		<link>http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/10/119365/comment-page-1/#comment-40445</link>
		<dc:creator>Les</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/09/119365/#comment-40445</guid>
		<description>Bravo Denise, I think you exactly correct.  I think Ms. Kimmel was expressing the view that while confrontation has its place, real change comes through compassion, reasoned discussion and gradual conversion.  We didn&#039;t get in this mess overnight and it will unhappily take time to turn it around, but truth and reason is on the pro-life side.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bravo Denise, I think you exactly correct.  I think Ms. Kimmel was expressing the view that while confrontation has its place, real change comes through compassion, reasoned discussion and gradual conversion.  We didn&#8217;t get in this mess overnight and it will unhappily take time to turn it around, but truth and reason is on the pro-life side.</p>
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		<title>By: dkpalaska</title>
		<link>http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/10/119365/comment-page-1/#comment-40444</link>
		<dc:creator>dkpalaska</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:55:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/09/119365/#comment-40444</guid>
		<description>As always, an excellent and informative article by Fr. Pavone. We are so blessed with his truth-filled leadership!

For those responding to Ms. Kimmel, I think there might be some misunderstanding:

I doubt that anyone could consider that I vacillate on pro-life issues. I believe abortion is gravely immoral in all circumstances. I vote, and vote every time, consistently pro-life before any other issue. And I see exactly where Ms. Kimmel is coming from.

She did not say that she herself believes there is a grey area. She did not say that there were not other and better options than opting out of the &quot;burden&quot; of bearing a child by having an abortion. She reiterated an important point in Fr. Pavone&#039;s article that all too many ardent pro-lifers, in their zeal, often overlook: To change people&#039;s hearts and minds, you must talk WITH THEM, not AT THEM.

And to effectively talk with someone you disagree with and hope to change the mind of, you absolutely must find that common ground. You must, casting off disgust or anger, have to seek to understand their concerns. Trying to walk in someone else&#039;s shoes does not mean that you give any indication that you endorse their point of view. It does not mean that you run the risk of suddenly &quot;switching sides&quot;. It is not a sin.

If you seek role models, consider God Himself, who came to us humbled as a slave. He did not mince words about what sin and Hell are, but came for the sinner nonetheless, walking in our shoes.

Not everyone is called to the ministry of reaching out to pro-choice individuals, of course. But please do not minimize the importance of supporting those who do so, risking ridicule and rejection on an even more personal level than I do when I&#039;m standing in front of the abortion clinic with my rosary and a sign.

Blessings and strength to all in the continuing fight for life!
Denise

In all things, love: 1 Cor 13</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As always, an excellent and informative article by Fr. Pavone. We are so blessed with his truth-filled leadership!</p>
<p>For those responding to Ms. Kimmel, I think there might be some misunderstanding:</p>
<p>I doubt that anyone could consider that I vacillate on pro-life issues. I believe abortion is gravely immoral in all circumstances. I vote, and vote every time, consistently pro-life before any other issue. And I see exactly where Ms. Kimmel is coming from.</p>
<p>She did not say that she herself believes there is a grey area. She did not say that there were not other and better options than opting out of the &#8220;burden&#8221; of bearing a child by having an abortion. She reiterated an important point in Fr. Pavone&#8217;s article that all too many ardent pro-lifers, in their zeal, often overlook: To change people&#8217;s hearts and minds, you must talk WITH THEM, not AT THEM.</p>
<p>And to effectively talk with someone you disagree with and hope to change the mind of, you absolutely must find that common ground. You must, casting off disgust or anger, have to seek to understand their concerns. Trying to walk in someone else&#8217;s shoes does not mean that you give any indication that you endorse their point of view. It does not mean that you run the risk of suddenly &#8220;switching sides&#8221;. It is not a sin.</p>
<p>If you seek role models, consider God Himself, who came to us humbled as a slave. He did not mince words about what sin and Hell are, but came for the sinner nonetheless, walking in our shoes.</p>
<p>Not everyone is called to the ministry of reaching out to pro-choice individuals, of course. But please do not minimize the importance of supporting those who do so, risking ridicule and rejection on an even more personal level than I do when I&#8217;m standing in front of the abortion clinic with my rosary and a sign.</p>
<p>Blessings and strength to all in the continuing fight for life!<br />
Denise</p>
<p>In all things, love: 1 Cor 13</p>
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		<title>By: Jim McFillin</title>
		<link>http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/10/119365/comment-page-1/#comment-40441</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim McFillin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:51:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://catholicexchange.com/2009/06/09/119365/#comment-40441</guid>
		<description>Terri,

In your statement, you said, &quot;The problem I have encountered is that pro-lifers don’t want to wander into anything that may be perceived as a grey area.&quot;

Let&#039;s say we are in a theater with 4000 people. And let&#039;s say, I start killing a person every 25 seconds. Would you tell me to stop? Would you stop me yourself? Would you just ignore it, because these people are &quot;not wanted.&quot; (A woman at Planned Parenthood actually yelled, &quot;This baby is not wanted.&quot;)

Ask yourself the real question. 

Do I believe this preborn baby is an actual person with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? If you do, you see abortion for what it is--evil, death, black as opposed to white. If not, grey is an option.

Jim McFillin
Great Mills, MD</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Terri,</p>
<p>In your statement, you said, &#8220;The problem I have encountered is that pro-lifers don’t want to wander into anything that may be perceived as a grey area.&#8221;</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s say we are in a theater with 4000 people. And let&#8217;s say, I start killing a person every 25 seconds. Would you tell me to stop? Would you stop me yourself? Would you just ignore it, because these people are &#8220;not wanted.&#8221; (A woman at Planned Parenthood actually yelled, &#8220;This baby is not wanted.&#8221;)</p>
<p>Ask yourself the real question. </p>
<p>Do I believe this preborn baby is an actual person with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? If you do, you see abortion for what it is&#8211;evil, death, black as opposed to white. If not, grey is an option.</p>
<p>Jim McFillin<br />
Great Mills, MD</p>
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