however, the author’s explanation that ‘the ends does not justify the means’ is oversimplistically applied to the use of nuclear weaponry in ww2. first the author asserts that the mass destruction of civilian noncombatant populations by nuclear weaponry is irreconcilable, but does not address that the necessary alternative left, a military invasion, would likely have resulted in even greater destruction of civilian noncombatant populations. (similarly, not obtaining the unconditional surrender of japan would likely have resulted in an even more aggressive japan leading to ww3 1 generation later, as occurred with germany between ww1 and ww2).

so the author rejects such destruction in analyzing one option but does not even consider it regarding the alternatives. that is illogical.

and that lack of thourough thought in her analogy makes her further assertions regarding torture suspect of similar irrationality or incompleteness, as good as it may look otherwise.

regarding mass destruction of civilian noncombatants, I wonder if the author applies the same logic to God’s commands to the Isrealites to entirely destroy the people’s occupying the promised land, as in the book of joshua. it seems there must be some exception there…

offered sincerely, in the meeting of kindness and truth

Exactly right – “Sanctimonious posturing won’t protect our country” neither will it raise the discourse to the level where the differing factions can come together at the “lowest common denominator to move forward with a fruitful debate.”

If D.C broke the law, he goes to jail. N.P. must also go to jail because she was briefed and agreed. B.O. must also go to jail because as a senator he knew and not only did nothing about it but never brought up the issue during the campaign so that the voters could ponder this “criminal” and “immoral” act.

What’s not to like here. They’re in jail, democracy flourishes, Obama, I mean Osama is torture free and I get my cookie.

Oh, he goes back and forth across the Pakistan, Afganistan, Kurdistan, Kazakstan and Satanstan border.

More cookies, more info.

I didn’t literally mean “drop a third bomb” I was refering to the fact that it took TWO in the first place in order for Japan to surrender unconditionally. I was trying to make the point that Japan wa recalcitrant in refusing to surrendrer. Sorry for the confusion.

Why is Obama so concerned with morals and truths and means and ends these days? In his book, as I learned in the CE article called Means and End and the Audacity to hope which ran March 27, the author quoted from the book;

“Implicit…in the very idea of ordered liberty was a rejection of absolute truth, the infallibility of any idea or ideology or theology…” And a page later, this: “The rejection of absolutism…has encouraged the very process…that allows us to make better, if not perfect, choices, not only about the means to our ends, but also about the ends themselves.” This pragmatism even about ultimate ends allows us, Obama continues, to escape “the cruelties of the Inquisition, the pogrom, the gulag, or the jihad.” I’m afraid that this is where I felt obliged to get off the train.

Perhaps the man who is more righteous than the pharasees these days, is solidifying and pacifying his left wing base. Perhaps he’s massaging his socialist buddies in Europe so as to garner support for his socialist agenda.

Certainly Pelosi “finding ethics/God” at this point is laughable given her proven involvement and knowlege of the US position.

I clearly support having a rational discussion on the issue, however, PLLLLLLeeeeaaaasssseeee (please) don’t tell me Obama et al are taking some moral high ground.

Sanctimonious posturing won’t protect our country. We’re at war, and not with conventional soldiers. Politicians must rise above their own petty selves and truly consider:

What is torture? What is truth? Who is truth?

thanks for the discussion. paul, guitarmom, goral, michael, jvista, wayne…I’ve got some thinking to do while I bake cookies for Osama bin Hiding a long time…..I’ll give you a cookie if you tell me where he is…..

Had the emperor voted with the other three to continue the war after the second bomb, or the plot to overthrow Japan’s government succeeded, the allies *would have had to invade Japan and then we could have lamented the many, many, many more casualties – all by “conventinal” means.

I think we live in a very divisive and partisan age. Americans no longer share a common culture, i.e. we worship different gods, and as a result our political imaginations and perceptions do not provide an adequate lowest common denominator to move forward with a fruitful debate. Representitive democracy will not long last when we can’t agree on even fundamental principles.

It use to be that killing a baby or hanging a captive man upside down and pouring water down his nose would be consider wrong; the first time, every time, all the time! Sure we were willing to fight an unjust aggressor and even to punish a criminal, but we would never accept the wholesale killing of innocents or the inhuman cruelty of torture. The proof that we have fundamentally changed as a society, and lost something that used to hold us together is in the 8th ammendment to the constitution. VIII. Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. The ammendment prohibits cruelty to the guilty, never mind cruelty to the possibly guilty or to those who “know too much,” are inconvenient, or unpleasant even if they didn’t do anything themselves. And yet whether in the case of abortion or torture this is what we are doing–we are being cruel because we think someone poses a danger to our life, our happiness, our plans.

Whether its safety and security for our nation or the ability to “choose” not to be bothered with a living Child–the God that these positions represent is not the Christian God.

Someone said that this debate is only helping the democrats, maybe that is true, because they have had 40 years to come to grips with the fact that their god is libertine hedonism whereas we are just now beginning that slippery slope.

But unless Catholics and Christians wake up (and also Jews and Muslims and the rest) and realize that apologizing for the Republicans will only enable them to stray further from the path, then we will soon find American a country with two parties that are fundamentally opposed to God.

You want to help the Republicans, and I do, call up your GOP rep and party boss and tell them as much as you are against abortion you are equally against torture. Tell them that torture is unacceptable and that the GOP needs to distance themselves from any and all that defend it. I wish some of my co-religionists had had the integrity to tell the democratic party this when faced with a choice between social justice and abortion back in the 70s. This debate is sapping the vigor from the Republican party, just as moral issues sapped the Democrats for the past 40, and its not going to get better until Republicans come to grips with who they are. The question is, who will they be if they don’t move away from supporting what everyone knows is torture?

It seems posters want to justify this but I wonder how many would cut Pelosi slack.

Asnd I repeat a man was totured 185 times. Something is wrong there. Can’t you see it?

Also the claim that had we not tortured we would not have stopped attacks is unprovable.

What does torture do to the torturer? It cannot help but make him callous.

I rest easy at night knowing that ones who’s righteousness exceeds that of the pharasees are keeping my sleep peaceful.

My snores are punctuated by fits of apnea when visions….almost a reality…..enter my head of dropping yet a third bomb on Japan to end the war.

some of us get it…..mainly al quida and the Taliban types.

Remember the Kohl! We’re at war! Remember the Marines in Lebanon! We’re at war! ……..
……..but who are the opposing solidiers? The Taliban knows.

Let me bake cookies, then I’ll know too.

That’s a political party statement if I ever heard one.