Comments on: Lefty and Righty Secular Messianism

By: Steynian 263 « Free Mark Steyn!

Steynian 263 « Free Mark Steyn! — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 00:20:42 +0000

[...] MARK SHEA– Lefty and Righty Secular Messianism …. [...]

By: noprem

noprem — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 08:08:26 +0000

“what pride is to an individual person, nationalism is to a people.”
In fact, your fellow Catholic Arnold Toynbee felt the same. He argued against nationalism as destructive to humans and their peaceful endeavors. He felt the mainstream religions furnished the best alternative, bringing peoples together in spite of national feelings.
It’s a long way from preaching to practice, however. In both World Wars he served his country (UK) as a dollar-a-year man, helping English Catholics kill German Catholics. Not unusual; both of those wars involved mainly nations claiming to be Christian. The Christian leader, though, didn’t have wars in mind for his people: “A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.” (John 13:34,35; Douay) “As I have loved you”- then he gave up his life for them, he did not kill for them.

As to the superiority of one country over another- “Christian” or not- perhaps God’s prophetic dream to Nabuchodonosor can shed light: As interpreted by Daniel: “But in the days of those kingdoms, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, and his kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people: and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms: and itself shall stand for ever.” (Dan 2:44; ibid.)
The Douay at newadvent.com has this note: “A kingdom… Viz., the kingdom of Christ in the Catholic Church which cannot be destroyed.” Be that as it may, the “break in pieces and consume” is not well-known to many, as I have found. Has the Church told Bush Minor, Mr. Sarkozy, and the others that this is to be the fate of their “empires”? More important, are individual Catholics made aware that they should not be found in the to-be-consumed organizations at the time of the prophecy’s fulfillment?
I find that most Catholic commentators, like Mr. Shea, instead take the view that participation in national affairs is somehow a religious duty. Daniel’s God disagrees.

By: Warren Jewell

Warren Jewell — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 05:05:50 +0000

gk – thanks, but ‘great’ covers me only like ‘saint’ could – AT LEAST premature.

Yes, we can hope for a L-train world series – both teams have the players, coaching and moxie. It was 1906, when last both got to the Series. a century plus two too long. Pray for the luck to witness such Chi-town glory, if only in baseball.

Apropos of GKC, who possessed a bold single way of trying to educate and illuminate, and in witness both to the Forty Days for Life and our current political campaigning, he noted that it is wastefully silly to look for some hero when one can just go ahead and be a hero. Next time around, let’s all run for office. We just have to avoid being so ‘clever’ and/or ‘messianic’ as to be part of the mortal decadence of our own experiment in governance.

By: crazylikeknoxes

crazylikeknoxes — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 19:55:23 +0000

I enjoyed the essay. And would like to add a few (more) bons mots from Chesterton which I think are appropriately addressed to secular messianists of the right and the left as well as of the European variety: “Many clever men like you have trusted to civilization. Many clever Babylonians, many clever Egyptians, many clever men at the end of Rome. Can you tell me, in a world that is flagrant with the failures of civilization, what there is particularly immortal about yours?” From The Napoleon of Notting Hill.

“Spera in Domino, et fac bonitatem; et inhabita terram, et pasceris in divitiis eius.” Psalm 36(37):3.

By: gadjmljj

gadjmljj — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 18:59:34 +0000

That’s what so great about this 40 days for life. It organizes and empowers people to do something about the immoral culture we live in now. Not just wait for the “right” candidate to get into office ( although chosing the right person is very important). This country will not change until enough hearts have changed. And the call is not to those who don’t know or understand but to us that (say) we do know and understand. The scripture for the 40 days for life is this:
“If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. (2 Chronicles 7:14)
We need to pray harder, sacrifice more for one another, and hope always in God.

By: patti

patti — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 18:11:24 +0000

What an insightful article. How many of us feel let down by our country’s insane loss of moral logic? How many keep hoping people will come to their senses? In the end, it’s the way of the world. Our task is to follow Christ. Of course we are let down when others beat a path in the other direction. But just like other countries in the past, our pride leads us astray. Perhaps that is why the humble, poor countries sometimes have a leg up on us spiritually. Then, like Ireland, when prosperity arrives, people first define it as God’s blessing and then eventually forget God altogether as they pursue their own worldly agenda.

By: elkabrikir

elkabrikir — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 17:53:06 +0000

Mark,
thanks for the article and reminder. My blood pressure went down several points!

James Madison wondered “whether the American experiment was to be a blessing to the world or to blast forever the hopes which the republican cause had inspired.”

God’s will be done.

Blessed be the name of the Lord.

By: gk

gk — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:39:35 +0000

Warren – Pristienius,

It is good to see your words. You are one great guy.

Please kiss both the Cubs and White Sox for me. The last time they were both in the play offs was … 190-something right? And kiss the air around Chicago because, although she is not Rome or Egypt, she is to me home of a good people.

I look forward to seeing more comments by a Mr. Warren Jewell! My six kids are doing well and so am I. Thanks be to God I have been married 16 years. It is a gorgeous blessing of which I am not worthy. I have no rigth, no right to anything God gives me. But, I heartily imbibe all that he does.

Love and respect,

GK
- George

By: Warren Jewell

Warren Jewell — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 14:05:24 +0000

Nationalism tends to ‘group’ us when the very Two Great Commandments are calls to personal humility before God, and for love of God, self and neighbor. I find the surest way to that love is simply to remember that God loved and loves me still first (1John 4:19), before I can lift my head, heart and hand to Him.

God does really only save us ‘one at a time’, and as each of us is uniquely His child. Our nation (state, locale, abode) is really more ‘where we are’ than ‘who we are’. ‘Who I am’ like my salvation is a very personal thing between God, Who is I AM, and His Church and me. Hey, if God can refine the prophecy and salvation of John the Baptist in the wilds of and beyond Israel, God can give us His love, mercy, gifts and graces to me and to you anywhere.

By: Arkanabar Ilarsadin

Arkanabar Ilarsadin — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 10:27:44 +0000

Though America is surely worth fighting for, she isn’t worth despairing over. Good as she may be, never forget that God has better for us.