I do not understand why you keep throwing religion into this discussion. You do not sound like you would support religion being used as a determinant for our public policy – and I certainly have not suggested we should – so why do you keep bringing it up?

The link was an interesting summation of history & contemporary opinions on the subject, but seems to mix opinion with fact as if they held equal weight in answering the question.

And yet the scientific definition of the beginning of life has long been accepted to occur at conception, it is only within relatively recent times – the generation of Roe v. Wade & the pill – that the waters became conveniently muddy. As a medical professional, I watched the change from ‘life begins at conception’ to ‘life begins at implantation’. What new medical evidence produced this change? None – it was simply a decision of political expedience. (To know the AMA is to accept this as par for the course)

Let’s play along with this lucrative muddiness of theirs, though. Suppose we really cannot know anymore when life begins – do we err on the side of caution or do we let each person decide for themselves then?

I am not an expert on developmental biology or bioethics, so I have no place debating this issue (and if you are not, you probably don’t either). I did google When does human life begin and I came up with this text:

http://8e.devbio.com/article.php?id=162

This is probably a good place to start, but the truth is I am not qualified to debate such an issue without a lot more study. All I am saying is that you should probably not blindly accept any ideology at face value, especially if it promises you “riches after this life”. Instead, why don’t you focus on making this world a better place to live. Thanks!

So far I have been accused of supporting honor killings and slavery. What do you have to gain by making me look like a bad person? Perhaps this is not the forum for rational discussion? I see where this is going, we are each trying to get the last word here. While we are at it perhaps we can gain an understanding of the difference between morality and ideology. I have a feeling I said morality earlier, when I really meant ideology. My bad.

The only reasonable reply to your assertion would be to accept your invitation to initiate a rational & logical discussion of when life begins.

So from a scientific point of view, what do we know?
We know that at the moment of conception, the first stage of a new human life begins. This zygote – as the very first stage of human existence is termed – is formed after the genetic material from the woman’s ovum joins with the genetic material from the man’s sperm and a completely new & unique – and very human – strand of DNA is formed. This DNA is not the DNA of the mother and there is no other human being who has had or will have that same DNA.

The DNA is formed as the new person is formed – you cannot have the one without the other. This unique person meets the scientific criteria for being alive – eats, metabolizes, and grows/develops – as well as being distinctly different from his or her mother.

The Church believes – and teaches – that life begins at the moment of conception. This is actually based on *scientific* facts provided by the field of embryology.

If I hand you a gun & you shoot someone, that would make me an accessory. I don’t think the court would be moved by my plea that I was personally opposed to the killing, but didn’t feel that I had the right to tell you what to do – or that if I hadn’t handed you the gun, you would have gotten it some other way anyway. Justice would rightly apportion me a share of your guilt & I would do jail time, too.

If you really believe that abortion is the taking of an innocent life, how could you honestly sit back & let someone kill another with impunity? How could you support someone else doing the same? Is abortion justifiable homicide?

No one is telling women what they should do with their own body here; we are telling them that they do not have the right to take their child’s life – that’s the body of another unique & living human being, not theirs, regardless of where he or she resides.

And following thru with your logic based on the posts above, does this mean that you also believe that we have no right to intervene in the “honor” killings because we have no right to legislate against other people’s religious beliefs?

If we do make “honor” killings illegal, that very likely will reduce them, but undoubtedly will not eliminate them – does that mean that we should not bother?

Murder is illegal, but legislating against it has not eliminated it, so does that mean that we should stop incarcerating & instead begin education the perpetrators?

The pro-life movement has been struggling valiantly for almost 4 decades to educate, inform & provide alternatives to these girls/women who need the help. Unfortunately, the industry that is profiting from the slaughter has used their vast supply of wealth to significantly thwart public awareness of all those efforts.

If they were defunded, the playing field would be more level and then you would see clearly that most of these “women’s advocates” are really self advocates who were lining their own pockets with the blood money.

No one is doing these girls/ women any favors by legalizing abortion. These “doctors” are still the same unethical cads operating in unsanitary & largely unmonitored “clinics”. Are the lives of the women they have killed or injured not worth as much consideration? And then there are all the under age girls who are victims of statutory rape or incest who remain victims because their abusers are able to hide the “evidence” of their abuse.

There is so much more & I have barely scratched the surface. But how do we inform & educate those who don’t want to know? And do we allow the killings to go on without mercy while we wait for their conversion?

It sounds as if you are trying to equate abortion and honor killings. Yes, I am familiar with these honor killings and yes I agree that they are horrible (the same with the death penalty). But, once you consider abortion the taking of innocent life, there is no longer any point in continuing a debate. This is because killing in all forms is of course wrong (duh!). So, by closing your mind to a logical and rational discussion of when life begins, you’ve painted yourself into a corner.

I believe bradsharonb has a much more reasonable view, in that this individual believes that you cannot force your version of morality into public policy. So, if you want less abortions, you should come up with a more practical belief system (perhaps comprehensive sex education, but if you are as extreme of a Catholic as I think you are you have already closed your mind to this as well). I don’t see how you can be so delusional that people are only going to have sex for the purpose of procreation w/in the confines of marriage.

This is the real reason I am done with Catholicism — the rigid, inflexible belief system that is unwilling to question the doctrine. If I wanted this kind of belief system, I’d be an evangelical. Granted, there are some Catholics who are not so doctrinaire and stuck in extreme idealogical positions, but not enough to make a difference.

In the grand scheme of this presidential election, perhaps you should think twice before you vote for a Republican (again?) Think about how often the Republicans bring up the issue (every 4 years). The truth of the matter is, even though the Democratic party is taking a pro-choice position, I believe that their entire platform will actually lead to less abortions. Look at what really happens, the Republican party only cares about big business, and uses wedge issues (abortion, gay marriage, guns, welfare, and so on) to attract people to vote against their own economic interests. All this, while they hand out welfare to big corporations that are making record profits. All this, while they cut taxes for the rich, increase spending, and pass the debt on to future generations (perhaps they want less abortions, because they need more people to pay off this debt). They say they are for the middle class and small business, while they are passing legislation to destroy both. Do not fall for the distractions and look at all the issues, please.

Good day.