Comments on: Contraception v. Natural Family Planning — Part 5 of 6 http://catholicexchange.com/2008/08/04/113188/ Catholic News, Catholic Articles, Catholic Apologetics, Catholic Content, Catholic Information Fri, 10 Feb 2012 03:46:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.2 By: c-kingsley http://catholicexchange.com/2008/08/04/113188/comment-page-1/#comment-32954 c-kingsley Tue, 05 Aug 2008 05:27:07 +0000 http://www.newcesite.com/2008/08/04/113188/#comment-32954 Now that gave me a chuckle, JanieJ -- you don't want to allow the popes to say that NFP can be used, but you'll listen to the priest giving a "Get out of Hell Free" card. (I'm sure you're kidding here, it made me smile. :o) Now that gave me a chuckle, JanieJ — you don’t want to allow the popes to say that NFP can be used, but you’ll listen to the priest giving a “Get out of Hell Free” card. (I’m sure you’re kidding here, it made me smile. :o )

]]> By: janinej http://catholicexchange.com/2008/08/04/113188/comment-page-1/#comment-32951 janinej Tue, 05 Aug 2008 05:02:09 +0000 http://www.newcesite.com/2008/08/04/113188/#comment-32951 MichelleGA: Bless you, my child. You are not far from the kingdom of heaven. A holy priest once told me that all mommies recieve a GET OUT OF HELL FREE card. I believe him. MichelleGA:
Bless you, my child. You are not far from the kingdom of heaven. A holy priest once told me that all mommies recieve a GET OUT OF HELL FREE card. I believe him.

]]> By: wgsullivan http://catholicexchange.com/2008/08/04/113188/comment-page-1/#comment-32949 wgsullivan Tue, 05 Aug 2008 04:33:28 +0000 http://www.newcesite.com/2008/08/04/113188/#comment-32949 janinej: margaretmary put it well. We had our ideas concerning a child at that point in our lives and God has His. At least at the moment of our third's conception we bowed to His will. It's funny, I was already to take offense at being told about our contraceptive mentality and when I understood your stance better I would almost have to agree with you. Almost. I would consider every conception an act of God. With that in mind and God's holding everyone's free will as gold, we can and do with ABC, disallow an act of God. Not using ABC would, of course, allow His Will and not human will unless we have made His Will ours. janinej:
margaretmary put it well. We had our ideas concerning a child at that point in our lives and God has His. At least at the moment of our third’s conception we bowed to His will.
It’s funny, I was already to take offense at being told about our contraceptive mentality and when I understood your stance better I would almost have to agree with you. Almost.
I would consider every conception an act of God. With that in mind and God’s holding everyone’s free will as gold, we can and do with ABC, disallow an act of God. Not using ABC would, of course, allow His Will and not human will unless we have made His Will ours.

]]> By: Cooky642 http://catholicexchange.com/2008/08/04/113188/comment-page-1/#comment-32948 Cooky642 Tue, 05 Aug 2008 04:22:52 +0000 http://www.newcesite.com/2008/08/04/113188/#comment-32948 janinej, I think Margaretmary did a good job in responding, but I wanted to add my own thought, here. First, if NFP is abhorrent to you and you don't need it, good for you! But don't use it to beat people who DO need it over the head. Secondly, I think you're missing a point, here: contraception is doing something to prevent a pregnancy (or, to stop the process once conception has taken place); NFP is doing something to avoid a pregnancy, but allowing God the final word. If it works and no pregnancy results, good; if it fails (as with wgsullivan's post, above), that's good, too. And, lest you fail to see my point, let me tell you that I never used NFP. Back in my childbearing years, all we had was "your grandmother's rhythm method". Well, I'm the grandmother. We did use the rhythm method (briefly) to try to get pregnant, but found it clumsy, awkward, and unsuccessful. I have 2 live children out of 4 pregnancies, and have lived long enough to understand God's wisdom in His choices for us. May God grant each of us the wisdom to trust Him. janinej, I think Margaretmary did a good job in responding, but I wanted to add my own thought, here.

First, if NFP is abhorrent to you and you don’t need it, good for you! But don’t use it to beat people who DO need it over the head.

Secondly, I think you’re missing a point, here: contraception is doing something to prevent a pregnancy (or, to stop the process once conception has taken place); NFP is doing something to avoid a pregnancy, but allowing God the final word. If it works and no pregnancy results, good; if it fails (as with wgsullivan’s post, above), that’s good, too.

And, lest you fail to see my point, let me tell you that I never used NFP. Back in my childbearing years, all we had was “your grandmother’s rhythm method”. Well, I’m the grandmother. We did use the rhythm method (briefly) to try to get pregnant, but found it clumsy, awkward, and unsuccessful. I have 2 live children out of 4 pregnancies, and have lived long enough to understand God’s wisdom in His choices for us. May God grant each of us the wisdom to trust Him.

]]> By: margaretmary http://catholicexchange.com/2008/08/04/113188/comment-page-1/#comment-32946 margaretmary Tue, 05 Aug 2008 03:44:10 +0000 http://www.newcesite.com/2008/08/04/113188/#comment-32946 janinej: Unfortunately many other Catholics also misunderstand the positive gift that NFP is meant to be. Rightly used, NFP enables a couple to listen together to God speaking to them through the women's body (designed and empowered by God). If they indeed have serious reason to postpone having a child, it enables them to know when to abstain and when God has provided them with the appropriate time to engage fully in the marriage act. This is not a secondary benefit but a tool to make proper use of the primary purpose of marriage. And, as in wgsullivan's experience above, there are times when God seems to say, "Whoops, you didn't hear me clearly." Contraception is an attitude that claims self as the sole authority in sexual matters. (I want my way and I'll do whatever I decide to do to get my way.) This attitude allows us humans to misuse God's gifts in order to separate ourselves from Him. This isn't the only area in which we refuse to listen to God's guidance for us. We just seem very prone to I, me and my. I don't recall anywhere in Scripture or Tradition a prohibition against using new ways of discovering God and the intricacies of His creation. When you come right down to it, God works His ways, not mine. But I find His ways are loving designed to reach the individual and the individual situation. Please listen. janinej:
Unfortunately many other Catholics also misunderstand the positive gift that NFP is meant to be. Rightly used, NFP enables a couple to listen together to God speaking to them through the women’s body (designed and empowered by God). If they indeed have serious reason to postpone having a child, it enables them to know when to abstain and when God has provided them with the appropriate time to engage fully in the marriage act. This is not a secondary benefit but a tool to make proper use of the primary purpose of marriage.
And, as in wgsullivan’s experience above, there are times when God seems to say, “Whoops, you didn’t hear me clearly.”
Contraception is an attitude that claims self as the sole authority in sexual matters. (I want my way and I’ll do whatever I decide to do to get my way.) This attitude allows us humans to misuse God’s gifts in order to separate ourselves from Him. This isn’t the only area in which we refuse to listen to God’s guidance for us. We just seem very prone to I, me and my.
I don’t recall anywhere in Scripture or Tradition a prohibition against using new ways of discovering God and the intricacies of His creation. When you come right down to it, God works His ways, not mine. But I find His ways are loving designed to reach the individual and the individual situation.
Please listen.

]]> By: MichelleGA http://catholicexchange.com/2008/08/04/113188/comment-page-1/#comment-32945 MichelleGA Tue, 05 Aug 2008 03:40:47 +0000 http://www.newcesite.com/2008/08/04/113188/#comment-32945 Janinej, I wasn't quite clear on your position regarding NFP until today. The tone of your posts from the other day seemed negative, but I didn't get your position until now. Anyway, I agree to an extent with what you are saying. We are taught from a young age and expected to adhere to a contraceptive mentality because children are seen in a negative light. (oh, sure, the idea of them is lovely, easy and lots of fun to talk about, but rare is the person who actually desires many - It's more like Me 1st, Spouse 2nd, Kids Last cuz they're a lotta work) I think NFP is seen as Catholic-birth-control-without-sinning because of the contraceptive mentality of our society and so it is abused, BUT I think it is a good option for those who absolutely need it because of a serious reason. The tricky part here is defining "The Serious Reason"! Hence, the abuse. So, it is much better to abstain and offer it up if the reason for avoiding another child is that terribly serious. Yeah, I guess I'm going around the block on this one. We learned NFP wayyyy back when we were young and sadly spaced our first children because we were "supposed to", and then we used it again after our twins were born, (babies # 5 & 6), but after a while of charting we looked at each other in the bathroom one morning and said, "This is dumb". I find it yucky, nothin' "natural" about it...never got so "natural" with myself before (blech)...and recording every little thing in order to avoid the blessing of another child simply because we thought we were "supposed to" -- esp. given all the negative comments directed at us due to the contraceptive mentality. So, we trashed the charts and the big fat book, went to confession, and said, "Hello God, we're all Yours in this as You intended", and He's given us 4 more. No, we are not rich with money, but we make ends meet every month and manage to save, and our only debt is a bit of mortgage. Our life is much richer and sweeter (and much less gross) without NFP, and of course, we would not change it. Janinej,

I wasn’t quite clear on your position regarding NFP until today. The tone of your posts from the other day seemed negative, but I didn’t get your position until now. Anyway, I agree to an extent with what you are saying. We are taught from a young age and expected to adhere to a contraceptive mentality because children are seen in a negative light. (oh, sure, the idea of them is lovely, easy and lots of fun to talk about, but rare is the person who actually desires many – It’s more like Me 1st, Spouse 2nd, Kids Last cuz they’re a lotta work) I think NFP is seen as Catholic-birth-control-without-sinning because of the contraceptive mentality of our society and so it is abused, BUT I think it is a good option for those who absolutely need it because of a serious reason. The tricky part here is defining “The Serious Reason”! Hence, the abuse. So, it is much better to abstain and offer it up if the reason for avoiding another child is that terribly serious. Yeah, I guess I’m going around the block on this one.

We learned NFP wayyyy back when we were young and sadly spaced our first children because we were “supposed to”, and then we used it again after our twins were born, (babies # 5 & 6), but after a while of charting we looked at each other in the bathroom one morning and said, “This is dumb”. I find it yucky, nothin’ “natural” about it…never got so “natural” with myself before (blech)…and recording every little thing in order to avoid the blessing of another child simply because we thought we were “supposed to” — esp. given all the negative comments directed at us due to the contraceptive mentality. So, we trashed the charts and the big fat book, went to confession, and said, “Hello God, we’re all Yours in this as You intended”, and He’s given us 4 more. No, we are not rich with money, but we make ends meet every month and manage to save, and our only debt is a bit of mortgage. Our life is much richer and sweeter (and much less gross) without NFP, and of course, we would not change it.

]]> By: Bruce Roeder http://catholicexchange.com/2008/08/04/113188/comment-page-1/#comment-32943 Bruce Roeder Tue, 05 Aug 2008 03:25:32 +0000 http://www.newcesite.com/2008/08/04/113188/#comment-32943 janinej, Here is a way to look at it that I found helpful. Say I want to lose weight. I could exert more self control and eat less or I could vomit after I eat a few times each day. Same effect -- lose weight -- but different approaches to it. One way is disordered and thwarts the way our bodies are designed to use food and get nutrition and energy, the other way cooperates with God's design and elevates the use of our intellect and will toward higher things. Similarly, NFP cooperates with God's design and artificial birth control thwarts it and is disordered. Whether a couple conceives another child or not -- and whether I lose wieght or not -- is secondary to the approach we take with respect to the right use of our reason in cooperating with God. Or not. janinej,

Here is a way to look at it that I found helpful.

Say I want to lose weight. I could exert more self control and eat less or I could vomit after I eat a few times each day. Same effect — lose weight — but different approaches to it.

One way is disordered and thwarts the way our bodies are designed to use food and get nutrition and energy, the other way cooperates with God’s design and elevates the use of our intellect and will toward higher things.

Similarly, NFP cooperates with God’s design and artificial birth control thwarts it and is disordered.

Whether a couple conceives another child or not — and whether I lose wieght or not — is secondary to the approach we take with respect to the right use of our reason in cooperating with God. Or not.

]]> By: janinej http://catholicexchange.com/2008/08/04/113188/comment-page-1/#comment-32941 janinej Tue, 05 Aug 2008 02:45:14 +0000 http://www.newcesite.com/2008/08/04/113188/#comment-32941 gadjmljj: Opposed is a good word. I'm opposed. My point is clear, see directly above your post. If you didn't get it, NFP is CONTRACEPTION. What are the fruits of NFP (successfully applied)? No kid. Other results such as increased communiction, spousal understanding and awareness,and so on are entirely secondary. The main purpose of NFP use is to prevent pregnancy, yes? True, it can be used non-contraceptively, i.e. in reverse, to enhance fertility, no moral problems there, but when they speak of the effectness of the method, quoting a 95%+ success rate, they're not talking about conception rates, they're talking about the opposite, Duh. The Church, before it got "enlightened" used to teach that the primary purpose of marriage is procreation, and that all other benefits are secondary. I'll stick with that. gadjmljj:
Opposed is a good word. I’m opposed. My point is clear, see directly above your post. If you didn’t get it, NFP is CONTRACEPTION. What are the fruits of NFP (successfully applied)? No kid. Other results such as increased communiction, spousal understanding and awareness,and so on are entirely secondary. The main purpose of NFP use is to prevent pregnancy, yes? True, it can be used non-contraceptively, i.e. in reverse, to enhance fertility, no moral problems there, but when they speak of the effectness of the method, quoting a 95%+ success rate, they’re not talking about conception rates, they’re talking about the opposite, Duh.
The Church, before it got “enlightened” used to teach that the primary purpose of marriage is procreation, and that all other benefits are secondary. I’ll stick with that.

]]> By: gadjmljj http://catholicexchange.com/2008/08/04/113188/comment-page-1/#comment-32939 gadjmljj Tue, 05 Aug 2008 01:58:58 +0000 http://www.newcesite.com/2008/08/04/113188/#comment-32939 janinej, What is your point in all this? Are you opposed to NFP and contraception? And if you are....and the pope says NFP is OKAY and contraception is not, who are YOU to contradict the pope. You know a tree by it's fruits, and the fruits of contraception and NFP are totally different. I know from experience. No doubt, NFP could be used selfishly, but contraception is intrinscally EVIL. If we look at the unitive side of the marriage act we can see the difference between and act of love and rape, both use the same act but one doesn't go with the meaning and purpose of the unitive side of the marriage act. janinej,
What is your point in all this? Are you opposed to NFP and contraception?
And if you are….and the pope says NFP is OKAY and contraception is not, who are YOU to contradict the pope. You know a tree by it’s fruits, and the fruits of contraception and NFP are totally different. I know from experience. No doubt, NFP could be used selfishly, but contraception is intrinscally EVIL.
If we look at the unitive side of the marriage act we can see the difference between and act of love and rape, both use the same act but one doesn’t go with the meaning and purpose of the unitive side of the marriage act.

]]> By: janinej http://catholicexchange.com/2008/08/04/113188/comment-page-1/#comment-32938 janinej Tue, 05 Aug 2008 00:58:38 +0000 http://www.newcesite.com/2008/08/04/113188/#comment-32938 wgsullivan: The barrier method and others don't have any "abortifacient qualities". Does that make THEM acceptable? NO. While I am happy for the failed contraception of your NFP child, it's hard to see the failure of the method as a plus, unless it forced you to repent of your contraceptive intentions... Interesting that you consider that we humans "allow" an act of God... NFP is CONTRACEPTION wgsullivan:
The barrier method and others don’t have any “abortifacient qualities”. Does that make THEM acceptable? NO.

While I am happy for the failed contraception of your NFP child, it’s hard to see the failure of the method as a plus, unless it forced you to repent of your contraceptive intentions…

Interesting that you consider that we humans “allow” an act of God…

NFP is CONTRACEPTION

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